Why is water pressure increased in a plastic bag in a bucket?

[sophiecentaur]

The vertical pressure gradient in the medium surrounding the bag, is greater in D than in B.

The medium surrounding the bag is the same for both (water columns). The pressure gradients will both be the same. It's the pressure in the bag that counts and the value will depend on the nature of the bag material but the bag will deform in shape. Assume no stretching of the membrane. It will depend on the pressure on its outside but that air pressure will be the same throughout. The bag will deform to balance the outside pressure of the water which will correspond to the normal pressure gradient. The bag will be squeezed in at the bottom of the air space (even wrinkling) and up at the top and the air pressure will be higher than ambient by an 'unspecifed' amount - somewhere corresponding to the head of water in D but the membrane will modify (support) that to some degree, everywhere.

I imagine that any resulting air pressure at the surface could be achieved just by tightening the neck of the bag and doing away with the bucket.

 

[A.T.]

The vertical pressure gradient in the medium surrounding the bag, is greater in D than in B.

The medium surrounding the bag is the same for both (water columns).

Look at the diagram again.

 

[Herman Trivilino]

It's fascinating to me that even with that 1' there's a gradient and that such a small amount could still be enough.

It's smaller than that!

We don't have 1 ft of pressure gradient. The 1 ft is the amount of pressure, but the height of the bag, just a few inches, is the amount of pressure gradient.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Look at the diagram again.

I did and apologies - I was comparing C and D as the difference in those two situations is less 'obvious' than comparing B and D.
Whilst correct, your description uses pressure 'gradient' when it's really the pressure on the surface of the clay that counts. That would have made the situation clearer. After all, that's what would cause absorption of air components into the clay.

We don't have 1 ft of pressure gradient.

I think there must have been a units problem. The use of ' and " for feet and inches is foreign to SI users. My opinion is "When in Rome ...." and Physics is a land of SI, in nearly all cases.

 

[ImaginaryTango]

Because the density of water is greater than the density of air.

I could be losing track of the factors, but with that in consideration, I get that the gradient is greater in D than B, but what about D compared to C? And why?

I'm beginning to think a critical part of this process is making sure there is some air in the bag and, possibly, even making sure the clay in the bag is exposed to the air in it.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I could be losing track of the factors, but with that in consideration, I get that the gradient is greater in D than B, but what about D compared to C? And why?

I'm beginning to think a critical part of this process is making sure there is some air in the bag and, possibly, even making sure the clay in the bag is exposed to the air in it.

Air in the bag seems very relevant. Option D will ensure that the air pressure on the clay surface is increased by the extra head of water in D and it provides a large surface area of air / clay interface. However, if there's a higher air pressure, how could that affect the transport of air molecules through the clay to lower layers and to affect the bulk properties?
Would D be any better than just squeezing the bag a bit? OR is there some detail in the process that hasn't been introduced to the discussion?

 

[A.T.]

... what about D compared to C?

See the posts by @jbriggs444

 

[sophiecentaur]

See the posts by @jbriggs444

I've been thinking, rather, that air was needed inside the clay but I was re-examining what @jbriggs444 had to say. Could be - but would it need an almost dry surface on the top? Does anyone use a detergent sprayed on top? But then, what would be the need for extra pressure in D?

The requirements for clay suitable for pottery are a bit special (potters are quite fussy about what they like and probably with good reason)
If the idea is to expel air then vibrating (as with concrete) could achieve that. Alternatively, a moderate vacuum works well to get smooth plaster of Paris for casting.

 

[haruspex]

What about the possibility that capillary action is responsible?

By itself, capillary action will tend to draw water into the clay. This will tend to expel any entrained air. If the clay is entirely immersed, there is nowhere for the entrained air to go. It is trapped and will be under some pressure. At best, it can attempt to bubble out the top. But surface tension will resist bubble formation. If, on the other hand, the clay has a surface exposed to air, then the entrained air has an exit pathway. Capillary action can then fully displace the entrained air.

The plastic bag is helpful because it ensures that air inside the bag will reach 100% relative humidity. The exposed clay will not dry out.

That's one of the only two ideas I had. The video shows the water being poured over the top, but there could still be dry patches.
The other is that the bag may exert shear forces on the surface that help to open up the channels.

Posted versions of the trick have some variation, which should help to narrow down the options.

 

[A.T.]

But then, what would be the need for extra pressure in D?

See my post #49 and the video in post #5.

In contrast to the diagram in the OP, the actual bag is not much larger than the block of clay. When water enters the clay, there is less water outside the clay in the bag. This has different consequences in B vs D:

- In case B, the level of the water in the bag remaining outside the clay drops, because gravity pulls the water in the bag down, as far as bag tension allows. The external pressure gradient is negligible.

- In case D, the much higher external pressure gradient acts to raise the water level in the bag, because the associated buoyant forces will push the air in the bag up, as far as bag tension allows.

Thus, the water level in the bag will be higher, and more of the clay will remain submerged, in D than in B.

 

[haruspex]

In contrast to the diagram in the OP, the actual bag is not much larger than the block of clay. When water enters the clay, there is less water outside the clay in the bag. This has different consequences in B vs D:

Certainly in the videos corresponding to case D that is true, but it is not clear to me whether it applies in any actual experiment that compared B with D. It would seem obviously wrong to pour only that small jug of water into the bag, with no surrounding tank, and expect any except the lowest part of the clay to soften much. @ImaginaryTango, could you clarify please?

 

[sophiecentaur]

See my post #49 and the video in post #5.

In contrast to the diagram in the OP, the actual bag is not much larger than the block of clay. When water enters the clay, there is less water outside the clay in the bag.

Actually, the video clears things up a fair bit because she is reviving some dry clay by increasing its surface area and adding a small amount of water - in the bag. The air situation was not relevant, maybe. The water in the bucket produces a small pressure differential into the clay surface. I guess that, after some time, the water in the bag would all have gone into the clay. She mentions that the clay had gone 'a bit slippy' so too much water may have ended up on the clay. There was too much water in the bag because she had punctured it. The small additional pressure ion D had made a significant difference to the rate of absorption.

A potter could have shortened this thread by several posts because we would know where we were going. (A typical PF thread, ion fact.)

 

[votingmachine]

My guess is that the bag keeps the water infiltration directional. If you surround the clay with uniform water, you get hydration and swelling uniformly around it. That well-hydrated clay seals against air escape. And you get the effect you describe as being "only the outer inch gets revitalized"

If the plastic seals one side preferentially (due to the water pressure) ... then the hydration might be directional, with water pushing air from the void volumes directionally.

I wonder if you could test that by putting the clay onto a baking rack in a bucket, with the bottom submerged in water by an inch or so, then close the lid to keep humidity saturated (no drying at the top).

When I watch the video, I think the water level is such that the top remains exposed to air (saturated air).

I don't know if the hydration is replacing air in void volume or infiltrating and swelling by new adsorption. Either way, the problem might be similar: An inch thick layer of fully hydrated clay is a barrier to further water flow. Think perhaps of pouring water thru coffee grounds. As the grounds swell, there is a reduction in the flow rate.

A directional flow will aid the capillary forces, and also allow any void volumes to depressurize.

Here is a simple test: punch MUCH deeper in the clay than in the video, essentially making a small bowl. Fill that with water. Put it in a bucket. See if that hydrates. If it does, then it is likely a problem created by uniform hydration from all directions creating a sealed cavity without an air escape path.

In that case, the true purpose of the bag is twofold, to save on clay sloughing off, and to keep the small amount of water you add from completely sealing the outside of the lump.

 

[sophiecentaur]

In that case, the true purpose of the bag is twofold, to save on clay sloughing off, and to keep the small amount of water you add from completely sealing the outside of the lump.

Yes; you are along the right lines here. The Physics of the situation are fairly clear, I think and it's the practicalities of the situation that count. Any method that increases the water pressure will speed the uptake of water in the clay. But the practical demonstration videos use just a small amount of water in the bag and this is probably the most important reason that D is favourite. You don't want too much water to get into the clay and the bag (unlike in the diagrams) is wrapped round the clay block limit just how soft ("slippy") the clay can get. That would be a nuisance as you'd have to dry it out before using it.

 

[Baluncore]

I missed this thread earlier, so now is the time to acknowledge all the previous work, before I attempt to handwave a consistent, and hopefully realistic story.

For this analysis I will assume that the plastic bags are impermeable barriers to water, and we can extend that impermeability also, to atmospheric gasses.

The interstitial spaces between the particles of clay contain some water and some air. Clay is a phyllosilicate, each layer within the clay particle can store and exchange metal ions with the external water solution. Hydrogen and potassium ions tend to fluidise the layers and so break up clay particles. That ion exchange is not important here, as the clay provided for pottery, will have been stabilised, my guess would be that it is saturated with a balance of sodium and calcium ions. To be specific, water is adsorbed onto the surface of the clay particles, while ions are absorbed into the clay particles.

The windblown dust seen when cultivating arable land during a drought, is often dry clay particles, being lost from that soil. When water is first added to a dry clay powder, the water is adsorbed, with some air being displaced. That clay mix is unworkable as the particles cannot move relative to one another. Adding more water will take the clay to a state where the particles are lubricated by sufficient water to make the clay workable. Too much water and the product will flow away, the clay particles being suspended in the liquid water, like a muddy river in flood, flowing to the sea.

We know that the plastic bag of potter's clay was workable previously, but the clay has been exposed to the air, and has dried out to the point where it cannot be conveniently worked. As the clay dried near the surface, the spaces between the clay particles were back-filled with air. The block of clay has dried out in depth as some water has diffused from inside towards the surface. The entire block has then become firm, with the surface the driest, containing most of the interstitial air. At this point the water content of the clay has fallen just below workable, so only a small amount of water, maybe 10% by volume, should be needed to take it back to a workable composition.

First, the required makeup water is added to the firm clay in the bag. The neck of the bag is then tied, not sealed hermetically, but still sufficient to allow excess air within the bag, to rise and escape. The tied neck is orientated uppermost. At this point there is an option for a secondary bag, the neck of which will later remain above the water, preventing external water flowing into the inner bag, mixing with the makeup water and clay.

The bag is then submerged in a bucket of water. That places an equal hydrostatic pressure against the water in the inner bag, causing air to escape, and the full surface of the clay block to be wetted. As makeup water moves into the clay, more air will be displaced, that will rise to be escape through the neck of the inner bag. That ensures the clay is fully surrounded by water. The outer bag allows the neck of the inner bag to be below the surface, ensuring the top of the clay is wetted only by the makeup water.

Given time, the provided makeup water diffuses into the surface of the clay block, pushing internal water ahead of it to equilibrate, allowing the clay particles to be better lubricated and so, to be workable. That is why a big block of clay can be made workable in a couple of days, as the individual water molecules only need to move a short distance inwards. During that process, the air displaced by the water needs to escape the block, rising and hopefully escaping the inner bag. The external hydrostatic pressure aids in that buoyant process.

Anyhow, that is my understanding and explanation of the rehydration procedure.

The rounded dents in the surface of the clay seem to be a customary ritual procedure. After doing everything possible, the potter can then rest assured, leaving the process to equilibrate over a couple of days. I doubt the dents make a significant difference. They do increase the surface area slightly, but they also form irregular pockets, while their creation threatens the integrity of the inner bag, making the optional outer bag more necessary.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Yes, but C doesn't have the same suspended clay concentration as D, where the suspended clay is prevented from dissipating throughout the whole bucket by the bag.

The effect of the bag seems to be more than just a rigid cylinder; or even a tight spherical bag. the bag can distort a bit and the 'slump' will probably be greater is there is some air at the top , which can compress. We're dealing with very slow velocities here so a small difference in shape would result in a difference in mixing of water and clay particles.
What I'm suggesting is that the clay can flow more when there's air at the top of the bag.

Much more measurement would be needed and Potters don't have available creative time to do them. I'd bet there are some experts in methods of construction with concrete who would see a connection between this problem and pouring concrete structures. If you try to order a simple thing like concrete for a garage floor, you'll come across a lot of factors and you can't ask "I just want . . . . "