A friend of mine who knows I believe in God but also put faith in

  • Context: High School 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Wingnuts
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a t-shirt featuring equations related to Maxwell's equations, with participants exploring the meaning and correctness of the equations presented. The scope includes conceptual clarification and technical explanation of electromagnetic theory.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the equations on the t-shirt, questioning their standardization and relation to light and electromagnetic phenomena.
  • Another participant identifies the equations as a version of Maxwell's equations and notes that solutions to these equations include electromagnetic waves like light.
  • A participant confirms that the equations are in integral form for free space and points out differences in notation and representation, suggesting that the t-shirt's equations are correct but less conventional in some aspects.
  • There is a discussion about the use of capital letters in the equations, with some arguing that it is less conventional while others assert that it could lead to confusion regarding the meaning of the symbols.
  • Participants express varying preferences for the forms of the equations, with some favoring the t-shirt's representation and others suggesting a more conventional or covariant form.
  • A later reply humorously engages with the complexity of the discussion, indicating a learning curve for the original poster.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the connection to Maxwell's equations, but there are multiple competing views regarding the notation and representation of the equations, leading to an unresolved debate about the appropriateness of certain symbols and forms.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in notation and definitions, particularly regarding the use of capital letters and the context in which they are applied. There is also an acknowledgment of differing units and forms of the equations without resolving which is preferable.

Wingnuts
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
A friend of mine who knows I believe in God but also put faith in science that has been proven ordered me this t-shirt (see attachment).

And it's really sweet, but I don't want to wear something if I don't understand it...

I went searching, but the closest thing I've found so far is a wiki document for maxwell's equations, but they aren't quite the same as what is on this shirt.

Would someone kindly explain this, and is it a standard equation, or is it just one relating to lighting or electric light or light emitted by stars or what?

Thanks in advance for humouring my ignorance...
 

Attachments

  • Light.jpg
    Light.jpg
    15.8 KB · Views: 521
Physics news on Phys.org


Wingnuts said:
I went searching, but the closest thing I've found so far is a wiki document for maxwell's equations, but they aren't quite the same as what is on this shirt.
That's what they are, a version of Maxwell's equations. Solutions to those equations include electromagnetic waves, such as light.
 
Welcome to PF!

Hi Wingnuts Welcome to PF! :smile:

Yes, they're the integral form of the four Maxwell's equations, in free space (so εr = µr = 1).

See section 3 of the PF Library article …

the differences are:

i] dA and ndS are the same thing, the vector representing a small element of area

ii] dS is wrong, it should be a small letter, either ds or dl (small element of distance) (S should mean a surface)

iii] Φ is the flux through the whole surface … so instead of ∂/∂t of an integral of E (or B) over surface S, your T-shirt has ∂/∂t of the flux of E (or B) through S … same thing :wink:​
 


Here is the T-shirt: with the equations in differential form!
 

Attachments

  • T-shirt.jpg
    T-shirt.jpg
    13.2 KB · Views: 448


tis not wrong to use a capital letter, just less conventional.
 


Wingnuts said:
...I believe in God but also put faith in science that has been proven...
It sounds like that T-shirt is perfect for you.

p.s. Welcome to Physics Forums!
 


Good for you.

I don't remember any commandment saying "Thou Shalt Not Think" .

Great message !
 


The integral form is correctly written in the special case of volumes, surfaces and boundaries of these at rest. The local (differential) form in the other posting is general. The only difference is due to the choice of units, which in the Ops case is the SI and in the white shirt's case in Heaviside-Lorentz units with c=1. I'd prefer the shirt. Even better were to write the equations in relativistic covariant form and Heaviside-Lorentz units since God for sure loves natural units and even more symmetry (and symmetry breaking, but this latter ingredient of the Standard Model not in the QED sector).:smile:
 


tiny-tim said:
Hi Wingnuts Welcome to PF! :smile:[/INDENT]

Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome and for the very helpful replies!

One thing is immediately clear: I know now what it's saying (because it's now been confirmed by the 'experts': the internets have, yet again, proven to be useful :wink: ) however, I still am not much further to *understanding* it. So, I have a steep learning curve ahead. :bugeye: Time to hit DeSlegte for a second hand physics 101 book.

tiny-tim said:
ii] dS is wrong, it should be a small letter, either ds or dl (small element of distance) (S should mean a surface)[/INDENT]

This analysis, based on the following link to the library document, confused me. The dS is also written with a capital letter 'S' there too.

Is Khashishi correct that it is just less conventional to write with a capital S, or is S really 'surface', and therefore, not appropriate? Perhaps a vote is needed, or is that just pointless pedantry, because those who can read should know which one it is within context?

Cheers!
 
Last edited:
  • #10


Redbelly98 said:
It sounds like that T-shirt is perfect for you.

p.s. Welcome to Physics Forums!

Thanks! Normally I would have to clarify my definition of 'proven', but I get the feeling that won't be necessary beyond saying that cargo cultists need not apply. To piggyback on Jim Hardy's delightful negative expression there, one of the actual commandments might be, "Thou shalt not produce nor accept dogmatically charged 'results'"
 
  • #11


Redbelly98 said:
It sounds like that T-shirt is perfect for you.

p.s. Welcome to Physics Forums!

You're all such a congenial bunch. Thanks!

vanhees71 said:
The integral form is correctly written in the special case of volumes, surfaces and boundaries of these at rest. The local (differential) form in the other posting is general. The only difference is due to the choice of units, which in the Ops case is the SI and in the white shirt's case in Heaviside-Lorentz units with c=1. I'd prefer the shirt. Even better were to write the equations in relativistic covariant form and Heaviside-Lorentz units since God for sure loves natural units and even more symmetry (and symmetry breaking, but this latter ingredient of the Standard Model not in the QED sector).:smile:

I strongly encourage you to do just that. If you do, I'll get that shirt too and then will have options. For calm days, regular days and complex days (given your description, for when I'm feeling especially rebellious :biggrin: ) Seriously!
 
  • #12
Hi Wingnuts! :smile:
Wingnuts said:
This analysis, based on the following link to the library document, confused me. The dS is also written with a capital letter 'S' there too.

No, in the Library article, every 'S' without a "dot" represents an area (with n dS = dA).

On the T-shirt, every 'S' comes with a dot", and represents a length, where the Library has "l". :smile:
Is Khashishi correct that it is just less conventional to write with a capital S, or is S really 'surface', and therefore, not appropriate?

If a friend gave you a T-shirt with "e = mC2", would you say that that was "just less conventional"? :wink:
 
  • #13


tiny-tim said:
Hi Wingnuts! :smile:

If a friend gave you a T-shirt with "e = mC2", would you say that that was "just less conventional"? :wink:

Ha ha ha. Very funny... Stepped right into that one, right? :rolleyes: Now I see, the obvious (to me) clues as being c=1 and 'relativistic co-variant form'. No? Or have a I just made an even bigger fool of myself? Well, I did say I was clueless, which was an open invitation. I pray your next prey to be a little more worthy. :wink:

Now that I know the culture, I'll be a bit more careful where I tread.

:blushing:

Thanks for the help, guys.
 

Similar threads

Undergrad Where can I find publicly accessible data from observatories in Europe?
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Other Should I Transition from Meteorology to Game Design?
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
High School Infrared Detectors & The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
  • · Replies 152 ·
6
Replies
152
Views
11K
High School Can someone please identify what I saw? (lights in the night sky)
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
5K
High School Is What we Know for Now Certain?
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
Structure of the Galaxy: 6 Questions Confirmed
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
4K
Can Faith and Reason Coexist in the Search for Truth?
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
5K
High School Assistance finding the nuclear energy difference during nuclear fusion
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
High School Questions about the cosmic microwave background radition and its discovery
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
Help requested on long-term habitable-zone stars
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K