A function 'continous' at a 'point'.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of continuity of functions at a point, specifically focusing on the definitions involving ε (epsilon) and δ (delta) in the context of limits and continuity. Participants explore the implications of these definitions, their interpretations, and the relationships between the variables involved.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that continuity at a point involves the relationship |f(c+h) - f(c)| < ε for all |h| < δ, questioning the role of δ in ensuring the function remains continuous.
  • Others argue that ε is given and δ is chosen based on ε, emphasizing that δ can be made as small as necessary to satisfy the continuity condition.
  • A participant expresses confusion over the definitions and relationships of ε, δ, h, and their roles in continuity, suggesting that the notation is overly complex.
  • Some participants propose that the definition of continuity implies that for any small change in x (represented by h), the change in f(x) should also be small (within ε), while others challenge this interpretation.
  • There are discussions about the geometric interpretation of continuity, with one participant describing how to visualize the relationship between ε and δ using horizontal and vertical lines on a graph.
  • Several participants express uncertainty about the definitions of the variables involved, particularly h, and how they relate to the concept of continuity.
  • One participant suggests that h is arbitrary and not computed with ε in mind, while another emphasizes that h represents a range around x that must satisfy the continuity condition.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of the definitions and the roles of ε, δ, and h. Multiple competing views remain, with some participants clarifying their understanding while others express confusion and seek further explanation.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the clarity of definitions and the assumptions underlying the continuity condition. Some participants struggle with the mathematical notation and the implications of the ε-δ definition, leading to varied interpretations.

  • #31
aaaa...but still there is a major doubt left.

What do you mean by a 'point'...for a function to be continuous at a 'point', the value of ε should be assumed infinitely small and the corresponding value of δ should also be infinitely small...THEN we can call the function continuous at a 'point'...and that point will be f(x)...or the value of f at x.
 
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  • #32
dE_logics said:
aaaa...but still there is a major doubt left.

What do you mean by a 'point'...for a function to be continuous at a 'point', the value of ε should be assumed infinitely small and the corresponding value of δ should also be infinitely small...THEN we can call the function continuous at a 'point'...and that point will be f(x)...or the value of f at x.

if a function is continuous at a point, then there will exist some kind of neighbourhood around that point such that f(a+h) as h approaches 0 is f(a).

-------xxxxxxx--f(a)--f(a+h)--xxxxxx------xxxxx -------

imagine this line as a discontinuous function (the x's are spaces, spaces don't work here), the dashes can be infinitesimally small distances, but the function is continuous at a because there is a neighbourhood around it where you can pick f(a+h) and have the limit of that as h goes to zero as f(a) ----- xxxxx-- xxx-------xxxxxxxf(a)xxxxxxx---- xxxxx--------- -----xxxxx ------


if f(a) is defined like this, then there is no neighbourhood around f(a) such that f(a+h) as h approaches 0 is f(a)----- --- ------- xxxxxxf(a)xxxxxxxx----f(a+h)-xxxxxxxx------------ ------ ------
----- --- ------- xxxxxxxx f(a)xxxxxxxx--f(a+h closer..)---xxxxxxxx ------------ ------ ------ ----- --- -------xxxxxxxxxx f(a)xxxxxxxxxx-f(a+h cannot go any closer)---- ------------ ------ ------
 
  • #33
dE_logics said:
aaaa...but still there is a major doubt left.

What do you mean by a 'point'...for a function to be continuous at a 'point', the value of ε should be assumed infinitely small and the corresponding value of δ should also be infinitely small...THEN we can call the function continuous at a 'point'...and that point will be f(x)...or the value of f at x.
There is no such thing as "infinitely small" real numbers. You can do calculus in terms of "infinitesmals" but that requires extending the real numbers to a new number system and that is very deep mathematics. Certainly nothing you have said so far implies that you are familiar with infinitesmals and I recommend avoiding them in favor of the "limit" concept we have been using so far.

Saying that a function is "continuous at a point", say "f(x) is continuous at x= a", is exactly what we have been talking about here. "f(x) is continuous at x= a" if and only if
1) f(a) exists.
2) \lim_{x\to a}f(x) exists.
3) \lim_{x\to a} f(x)= f(a).

More fundamentally, including the definition of "limit" in that definition
"Given any \epsilon&gt; 0, there exist \delta&gt; 0 such that if |x- a|&lt; \delta then |f(x)- f(a)|&lt; \epsilon".

The usual definition of "continuous" is "continuous at a point". We then extend the concept by saying that f(x) is "continous on a set" if and only if it is continuous at every point of that set.

Saying that a function is continuous "at a point" does not restrict the possible values of \delta and \epsilon in any way.
 

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