I A moving rod; two Lorentz boosts compared with one

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The discussion centers on the behavior of a rod moving in different reference frames under special relativity, particularly focusing on Lorentz boosts. It is established that when considering two non-collinear boosts, the transformation cannot be simplified to a single boost; instead, it results in both a boost and a rotation, known as Wigner rotation. Participants explore the implications of this on the rod's orientation, concluding that while the rod remains aligned along the x-axis in frame A, it experiences rotation when viewed from frame B due to the nature of the transformations. The confusion arises from the differences between single and multiple boosts, with the consensus that a single boost leads to rotation, while two boosts also result in rotation but through a different mechanism. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the complexities of relativistic transformations and their effects on objects in motion.
  • #31
@Ibix Wow! I thought you were giving an analogy in the first post, I didn't realize you were describing minkowski diagrams! That is quite a powerful visualization, very well made and captures the heart of the issue. I'm really impressed by this perspective, thank you.
 
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  • #32
Hiero said:
All I have is the 'hand wavey' reasoning that the perpendicular space should not get mixed in with the plane of the boost.

Yes, the rotation must be in the plane of the two boost directions, i.e., the x-y plane. (Why? Think about the composition of the two boosts; what transformation matrix components can be affected?) That means it must be about the z axis. The article @Dale linked to basically says the same thing, just with a lot more math. :wink:
 
  • #33
Hiero said:
The point is, from the proper frame, we are boosting off at some angle with the rod's length, (not zero and not perpendicular) and as far as I can tell this necessarily causes the rod to be rotated when changing frames (whereas the analysis with an intermediate frame A told me that the rod remains along x).
By boost of arbitrary direction, Lorentz contract works on boost direction of rod, so it has to rotate. Similarly if we put three rods assembled as XYZ axis or a cube box such an arbitrary direction boost, the cube becomes a moving parallelepiped.

Say rod proper frame is R, Lorentz transformations A→R and A→B keep rods vertical, but R→(A)→B does not.
 
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  • #34
Hiero said:
The thing which bothers me is how should two vectors which are parallel to an intermediate vector not be parallel to each other?
The rod is not a vector. It is a worldsheet. Different frames select completely different lines on that worldsheet, and as a result the direction of the rod does not transform as a vector.

For flat spacetime and for actual vectors, two vectors which are parallel to an intermediate vector are indeed parallel to each other in all frames.
 
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  • #35
Dale said:
The rod is not a vector.
I didn't mean that. The three vectors I was speaking of were the unit vectors in the x, x', and x'' directions; x vector is parallel to x' vector and x'' vector is parallel to x' (all this in the x' frame though).

I've come to grips with it though because all this parallel-ness is measured in the x' frame in which x'' and x are actually parallel. They only become non-parallel in the other two frames which doesn't violate that transitive rule of logic because they're no longer parallel to an intermediate vector in those frames.
 
  • #36
Hiero said:
The three vectors I was speaking of
Oh, I also thought you were speaking of four vectors.
 

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