A moving rod; two Lorentz boosts compared with one

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    Lorentz Rod
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relativistic behavior of a rod moving at a speed v in one frame while another frame moves at speed u in a perpendicular direction. Participants explore the implications of Lorentz boosts and the potential rotation of the rod when transitioning between frames, examining the differences between single and multiple boosts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the velocity components of the rod in frame B as v/γu for the x component and u for the y component, asserting that the rod remains oriented along the x-axis in frame B.
  • Another participant questions whether events that are simultaneous in frame A remain simultaneous in frame B, suggesting that this affects the rod's orientation.
  • Some participants argue that the composition of two non-collinear boosts results in a transformation that includes both a boost and a rotation, referencing Wigner rotation.
  • There is confusion regarding whether a single boost leads to rotation of the rod, with some asserting it does while others maintain that two boosts do not cause rotation.
  • One participant attempts to construct transformation matrices to analyze the situation, leading to further debate about the correctness of the matrix composition and its implications for the rod's orientation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the rod remains oriented along the x-axis in frame B. Some assert that it does, while others argue that a single boost results in rotation, leading to unresolved disagreement on the implications of the transformations involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential issues with assumptions regarding simultaneity and the nature of the transformations involved, particularly in relation to the proper frame and the effects of Wigner rotation.

  • #31
@Ibix Wow! I thought you were giving an analogy in the first post, I didn't realize you were describing minkowski diagrams! That is quite a powerful visualization, very well made and captures the heart of the issue. I'm really impressed by this perspective, thank you.
 
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  • #32
Hiero said:
All I have is the 'hand wavey' reasoning that the perpendicular space should not get mixed in with the plane of the boost.

Yes, the rotation must be in the plane of the two boost directions, i.e., the x-y plane. (Why? Think about the composition of the two boosts; what transformation matrix components can be affected?) That means it must be about the z axis. The article @Dale linked to basically says the same thing, just with a lot more math. :wink:
 
  • #33
Hiero said:
The point is, from the proper frame, we are boosting off at some angle with the rod's length, (not zero and not perpendicular) and as far as I can tell this necessarily causes the rod to be rotated when changing frames (whereas the analysis with an intermediate frame A told me that the rod remains along x).
By boost of arbitrary direction, Lorentz contract works on boost direction of rod, so it has to rotate. Similarly if we put three rods assembled as XYZ axis or a cube box such an arbitrary direction boost, the cube becomes a moving parallelepiped.

Say rod proper frame is R, Lorentz transformations A→R and A→B keep rods vertical, but R→(A)→B does not.
 
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  • #34
Hiero said:
The thing which bothers me is how should two vectors which are parallel to an intermediate vector not be parallel to each other?
The rod is not a vector. It is a worldsheet. Different frames select completely different lines on that worldsheet, and as a result the direction of the rod does not transform as a vector.

For flat spacetime and for actual vectors, two vectors which are parallel to an intermediate vector are indeed parallel to each other in all frames.
 
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  • #35
Dale said:
The rod is not a vector.
I didn't mean that. The three vectors I was speaking of were the unit vectors in the x, x', and x'' directions; x vector is parallel to x' vector and x'' vector is parallel to x' (all this in the x' frame though).

I've come to grips with it though because all this parallel-ness is measured in the x' frame in which x'' and x are actually parallel. They only become non-parallel in the other two frames which doesn't violate that transitive rule of logic because they're no longer parallel to an intermediate vector in those frames.
 
  • #36
Hiero said:
The three vectors I was speaking of
Oh, I also thought you were speaking of four vectors.
 

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