A night with the stars (Brian Cox on telly)

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Brian Cox's recent program on quantum mechanics sparked confusion regarding the Pauli exclusion principle, particularly his claim that all electrons in the universe must adjust their energies in response to changes in a localized system, such as heating a diamond. Critics argue that this oversimplifies the principle, which states that no two electrons can occupy the same quantum state within a single atom, not across the universe. The discussion highlights the complexity of quantum states and wavefunctions, suggesting that Cox's explanation may mislead the general audience about fundamental quantum mechanics. Many participants expressed concern that such statements could perpetuate misunderstandings about entanglement and quantum behavior. Overall, the need for clearer communication of these concepts in popular science is emphasized.
  • #91


atyy said:
Yes. It is technically true. In technical terms, this simply reflects the requirement that the wavefunction of a system of fermions must be antisymmetric, and the assumption that there is at any particular time a single wavefunction that contains all fermions in the universe. However, of course when we write a wavefunction for a solid on the earth, we don't expect to have to take account of the fermions on the moon to get a really good approximation. I cannot remember the argument that the fermions on the moon can be neglected for all practical purposes, but it is found in Shankar's QM text http://books.google.com/books?id=2zypV5EbKuIC&source=gbs_navlinks_s (around p275, search for "moon"!).

unfortunately the relevant pages 274,275 are not available in my google books preview. But if you have a (free) amazon account you can just search for the word 'moon' in the 'Look Inside!' view




(The relevant section starts on p 273 called 'When Can We Ignore Symmetrization and AntiSymmetrization?')

The point is that the the type of effect Cox tried to popularize, is in fact completely negligible in practice, even if quantum mechanics, as we currently formulate it, is exactly theoretically correct. But he did link to lecture notes where this point was made explicit to ~50 decimal places in his first post on the thread (several weeks ago)
 
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  • #92
James_Sheils said:
Hello,

I am the author of the review "Double Twit Experiment – What Brian Cox Gets Wrong", as linked by others.

In short, I think presentations like Cox's contributes to a social game that people play, to impress and stupefy. But not to understand.

Bravo, well said. I enjoyed your review. The internet is plagued with so-called wisdom. For those of us who are interested in science, but wish to avoid the pseudo-junk altogether, can you tell us how to find trusted sources?

Wikipedia can be a good starting point, right? From there you can check all the references to see if the authors are from a university, research facility, or published in a reputable journal. Peer reviewed is more reliable and clearly, arXiv is not peer reviewed. It can contain some dubious e-prints but most of the authors care about what they write. If the website ends with .gov or .edu it’s probably a good source, right? Can you think of anything thing else to add?

List of Scientific Journals

How the Scientific Peer Review Process works

Misconceptions about science

What is Science?

P.S. If you’re such a stickler, here’s a suggestion for your next write up.

Why does a photon slow down in a medium?

There are tons of explanations out there. Here is ZapperZ’s explanation from in here and another from yahoo. Is either of these explanations accurate? If not, then perhaps you could provide a better one on your blog.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=899393&postcount=4

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090918084206AALZBC5
 
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  • #93
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  • #94
SecularSanity said:
Bravo, well said. I enjoyed your review. The internet is plagued with so-called wisdom. For those of us who are interested in science, but wish to avoid the pseudo-junk altogether, can you tell us how to find trusted sources?

Thanks for your kind words.

I agree that Wikipedia is a good starting point. Contrary to popular opinion, Wikipedia has a very high fidelity, in physics at least. I hear from specialists in other fields, such as art history, that the pages do not generate enough interest from editors to be reliable. However, in physics there seems to be a good supply of specialist contributors. The only disadvantage I have found is that for a non-specialist, the pages can be difficult to understand. But Wikipedia is a reference source, not an educational program.

I agree with what you say about the other sources, but would always read them with a skeptical mind. As I mentioned in the article, I think the best source for basic physics comes from Walter Lewin's MIT course.

As for the photon question, that's a pretty difficult one to answer, and I can't claim to fully comprehend all the details of modern theory!

I think the explanation you linked was right to avoid single atom explanations, but did not address the faulty assumptions in the question.

As the Double Slit Experiment aims to elucidate, we are not able to measure what happens between a photons emission and its arrival without changing the conditions sufficiently to alter the experiment. And the double slit experiment summarized the very counter-intuitive results concerning detection of photons. They arrive as particles, but do not seem to behave as particles on their journeys.

Encapsulated in the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is a policy of not trying to speculate about 'where the photon goes' from source to detector.

We might have some mathematical equipment to calculate the probabilities of where the photon might end up, but we don't (or can't) know which path it took. Indeed, QED calculations assumed you need to consider every permissible path to determine the probabilities. So we can't appeal to the mathematical calculations for a satisfactory answer.

Thus, to as 'why' and expect a deterministic 'then the photon does this...' type of narrative asks too much of quantum mechanics.

But, the question could be answered by describing why the extra calculations for the material seems to delay the probability of a photon's arrival, compared with it traveling through empty space. I don't have sufficient quantum mechanical answer for this!
 
  • #95
James_Sheils said:
I am a maths and physics graduate who has taught physics in secondary schools in the UK for around 6 years. During this time, I've thought quite carefully about which parts of scientific inquiry are worth teaching - which ideas and skills are valuable.
So have many of us. Do you recognize that this practice generates in you a number of opinions, that can be expressed without automatically assuming yours is the complete and final truth of the matter? The most important element of the art of advancing an opinion is the high regard for decorum, civility, and the right to respectfully disagree. Polemic diatribes are both easy, and tempting, but often limit their impact to a relatively small set of die-hard afficionados.
Most important of all, any citizen will benefit from understanding the process of scientific thinking. The role of evidence in falsification, what constitutes a scientific theory, how logic is utilized to determine consequences of a theory, the imaginative guesses that bring about new theories. All of this equips a person with thinking skills and understanding they can apply to enrich their lives, and their understanding of the latest research.
Absolutely, essentially any science educator would agree with that. The issue is, does each person who gets on the internet for a half hour or hour presentation need to feel responsible for all that, or is this more logically the mission of the science educator in the classroom setting?
Values to extract from this include: anti-authoritarianism, fallibilism, logical analysis, philosophical reflection and courageous imaginations.
I agree completely, and indeed from your comments on Dr. Cox I formed the opinion that you are most likely both very capable, and very dedicated, in your science education mission. You probably teach very well, and linked to others who do also. But none of those facts actually justify that vitriolic critique. Not everyone needs to adopt the same mission that you would, in order to be considered of value to science in some objective or demonstrable way. In short, they do not necessarily need to submit to your judgement of their performance. The question is, what audience is your criticism intended for? If you want Brian Cox to pay heed, the tone would rule that out-- I doubt he would read past the first few paragraphs. If your goal is to get people who like to listen to him to boycott him and listen to others that meet with your approval, I doubt you'll have much success-- those inclined to agree with you have probably already formed a similar opinion and don't seek out Dr. Cox's presentations, and those who like them will most likely not be dissuaded, because they simply won't agree with you. If you want to reach that crowd, I think you'd do better with your own presentation-- enlighten and entertain in your own way, achieving those goals that you value, and reach that clientele in that manner. That would accomplish the same goal, but more effectively than a largely unfocused critique-- it's easier to teach than to unteach.
So what to do with a 1 hour presentation? Now, I'm sure there will be much noise about how producers won't agree to programs that present these 'old' ideas. But Cox seems to command a lot of respect - they have already agreed to let him give a one hour lecture with a blackboard.
And this is the fundamental flaw in your position. Here you suggest that your goal is to convince Brian Cox to use his hour differently. Do you really think the way you presented your position is likely to accomplish that? Your comments are not even directed to Dr. Cox, they are directed to people who would listen to him. So your goal is clearly not to get Dr. Cox to use his hour more effectively, which would be a constructive goal (though presumptuous), it is to get those who would listen to his hour to avoid it or join in the Brian-bashing. How is that going to teach people Newton's laws?

What's more, you are overlooking the fact that there may be a reason that Dr. Cox is getting this hour (and a blackboard!), and neither you nor I are-- he has proven the ability to entertain and energize his viewers. Personally I think I could put together something that would be entertaining and enlightening also, which you might find less occasion to criticize if we share similar educational values, but I'm not going to get the opportunity to reach such a huge audience. I'm just not, the issue is moot. So I can see value in a certain trade-off there-- yes, perhaps there is an overemphasis on what is titillating rather than what is good basic science, but it's not such a bad exchange to get these ideas out there to people, to help them see that scientists are not just in ivory towers discovering arcane looking equations that somehow helps us build better iPads. Instead, we are getting glimpses deep into the workings of our reality, and getting quite amazed in the process, and we are inclined to want to share some of that experience with a larger audience.
It is disappointing that he has decided to present something so esoteric, yet mostly rely on intellectual intimidation and argument from authority to establish the results. Sure, he tried some underrehearsed explanations and demonstration, but the material was far too broad for even the greatest of educators to do a good job.
OK, so maybe not everything he did worked as well as it could have, and maybe he can learn some lessons for next time. He probably knows that, or if he doesn't, a simple constructive comment might be all that would be needed. What's the purpose behind all the bashing? That's what I really think you should look at more closely, what is really pushing your buttons here? For example, why do you think that his primary motivation is to make himself feel smart? I think it's pretty clear what his primary motivation is, it is to share with others some of the amazing glimpses he feels he has gotten into our reality. Of course it's also fun to feel smart, and of course it's also a rush to be able to entertain, I hardly think we can criticize the comedian for liking to hear a house full of laughter!
Most dangerous of all, it encourages already arrogant students to presume they have understood an idea, when they have merely remembered some impressive words. I have met many students who have tried to explain black holes to me, or something about string theory. I always fell a sympathy that these curious minds have been duped by yet another shallow presentation of scientific inquiry.
But this is unavoidable. Do you really think this never happens to your students? At least the people in question are interested in something that connects with science-- the alternative may be the absence of any of that.
Or, there are the adults I meet who tell me they are 'really interested in science' and then ask me about m-theory, or black-holes.
OK, but the point is, maybe they would not have said they were interested in science and then talked about Newton's laws! That's what you have to include in your calculations. I have had some small success getting people jazzed about Newton's laws, but the fact is, it's just a lot harder-- the number of people who are going to feel that way is just less than it is for the wilder stuff. That I believe is Dr. Cox's primary motivation for his subject selection, not the desire to feel smart.
"Why do some object float in water?" I ask them. Most of them have nothing to say about this. Now I ask you, if a person cannot connect the perceptions of their experience with scientific patterns, what is the possible value in describing the theoretical intricacies of the latest research?
It is simply not an either/or propositon.
In short, I think presentations like Cox's contributes to a social game that people play, to impress and stupefy. But not to understand.
And there's certainly some truth to that. This is a valid criticism that can be raised, but it doesn't make what Dr. Cox is doing worthless or damaging to people's minds, they come to it because it gives them something they like, and it is certainly connected with science. I think it does a lot more good than harm, and if it could be improved in some way, who among us could escape that criticism? None of this justifies that vitriol, even though there are valid aspects to the points you raise.
 
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  • #96
James_Sheils said:
Thanks for your kind words.

And thank you for the reply.

Sorry, but I couldn’t resist. However, I’ll refrain from linking the video. :biggrin:

You’re young, handsome, and your accent makes you sound intelligent, but here’s some womanly advice. Critics should cover their own butt and stick to the bare necessities, don’t cha think? What’s up with the banana? :eek:

Thanks again.

Cheers!
 
  • #97
There are several science programs on bbc tv and radio, some more populist than others. Brian Cox's are more at the entertainment end of the scale, but I for one quite enjoyed the four episodes in The Wonders of The Universe series, for example (even with the ott music in the first series of broadcasts).

The target audience is certainly not elitist types, and you should probably avoid these programs if you have 'a stick up your bottom' attitude to such populist science.

There're always the online lectures of Susskind for example if you want a dry Diracesque introduction to QM. Feynman's style can be seen in the Messenger Lectures http://www.microsoft.com/education/...es/articledetails.aspx?cid=1936&c1=en-us&c2=0 (requires silverlight - microsoft compatible only) , I personally doubt his double-slit lecture (lecture 6) will enlighten the uninitiated any more than Cox's attempts.
 
  • #98
I am still surprised by what was said about the consequences for electrons throughout the Universe of warming a diamond in one's hand. For a start, diamond is an electrical insulator with a large energy gap of more than 5 electron volts whereas the average thermal energy of an electron at room temperature (3/2 kT) is only 0.04 eV. Increasing this by at most 5% falls far short of the minimum needed to cause any electrons to jump into higher energy levels (assuming the "box of carbon atoms" contains no impurities); it will just cause the atomic lattice to vibrate a bit more.

Ignoring anomalies (if any?) caused by relativistic effects such as electron creation and annihilation or the lack of any FTL signals, the Pauli Exclusion Principle does of course hold for all electrons everywhere, regardless of whether they are pictured as bound to nuclei, zipping along on their own at almost the speed of light or just drifting about in a plasma.

The double-well example is fine as far as it goes, but only bound states corresponding to fixed separations of the wells are considered. In a gas, unless two nuclei are part of the same molecule, they will not usually remain a fixed distance apart and therefore will not give rise to a set of stationary states with exact electron energy levels.

I think I'm right in saying that at present, the conventional view of astronomers is that a good 90% of ordinary (baryonic) matter (nearly all H) is in the plasma state. If this is correct, then around 90% of all electrons are not bound to any nuclei at all!

When two of these "free" electrons are in relative motion, there could always be some inertial observers for whom their energies are equal alongside others for whom they are unequal. Therefore, I do not see how it is possible in general to substitute rules about electron energies for the basic requirement of antisymmetry of the electron component of the total wave-function, a property which is both observer-independent and permanent.

I agree of course that quantum mechanics does imply that "everything is connected to everything else" through entanglement, but I don't think the scenarios chosen to illustrate this amazing idea were at all convincing.
 
  • #99
becox said:
Seems to be some confusion here about the Pauli Principle. Jeff Forshaw and myself write about it in detail in our book The Quantum Universe, chapter 8. The essential point is that two widely separated hydrogen atoms should not be treated as isolated systems. If you'd like to see how we teach this to undergraduates in Manchester, have a read of this:

http://www.hep.manchester.ac.uk/u/forshaw/BoseFermi/Double Well.html

But I do also recommend our book, because the argument is extended to explain semiconductors.

doodyone - in particular, I suggest you pay close attention, especially if you're an undergraduate. You might up your degree classification!

Brian

If it is the case that electrons occupy slightly different energy levels, then wouldn't it follow then the spectra would show similar subtle variations? In Chapter 11 of the Quantum Universe, it mentions the "Lamb Shift" and this is accounted for by factoring in particle interactions within the atom. Wouldn't this Lamb Shift be undetectable if there is also a certain "arbitrariness" about the actual energy levels? Or is it a question of scale? Or maybe, I haven't understood!
 
  • #100
dgwsoft said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018nn7l

I did enjoy Brian Cox's program on quantum mechanics last night, but one bit left me thinking "no, that's not right!".

The gist of it was that all the electrons in the universe have to be in constant communication to ensure that no two of them are ever in the same state. If he changed the energies of electrons in a diamond, by heating it in his hand, all the other electrons in the world would have to adjust their energies too.

I think this may have been an attempt to show that entanglement follows from the Pauli exclusion principle, but was it a simplification too far?

The Pauli principle confused me when I first heard it at school: did it mean that no two hydrogen atoms in the universe could be in their ground states simultaneously? I have always understood, since then, that it doesn't mean that, because which proton the electron is bound to is part of its state. So "in the first energy level around this proton" is a different state from "in the first energy level around that proton".

The exclusion principle states that no two electrons can be in the same *state* not, as Cox seemed to be implying, that they may not have numerically the same energies. That is not forbidden as far as I know. We would not see nice spectral lines from billions of hydrogen atoms all making the same state transition at the same time, if it was.

I now know there is a deeper explanation of the exclusion principle, namely that the multi-particle wave-function of a half-integral spin particle is antisymmetric, and that means the probability of finding two of them in the same place is zero. So OK, Pauli and entanglement are connected. But I always like a simple explanation if one is available. What does the panel think? Did what Cox said amount to a good explanation for a general audience, or does it risk perpetuating a misunderstanding?

If all the electrons in the universe have to be in constant communication to ensure that no two of them are ever in the same state, then this may contradict the principle of conservation of energy. If we control a material in such a way that it's electrons would occupy most of the lowest possible energy states - this would indicate according to Cox explanation that all the other electrons in the universe would have a lower probability to occupy these lowest energy states and a higher probability to exist in higher energy states. This cannot be correct.
 
  • #101
I'm sure Dr. Cox understands conservation of energy. His viewpoint is simply that if there is a probability that an electron will be in an energy state, this affects the accessibility of the state, so if I remove energy from an electron such that it would have a higher probability of moving into some state, and there is already some probability of an electron being in that state, the fact that all electrons are entangled (by their indistinguishability) implies that they are all "affected" in some sense. I think the real problem here is that Dr. Cox's words are being overinterpreted-- the key point is that electrons are identical, and thus entangled. Hence, any counterargument that first pretends the electrons have separate identities is already missing the point. Perhaps he was not careful to make this distinction-- it is crucial that all language like "this electron" or "that electron" be avoided when one is discussing Pauli exclusion.
 
  • #102
"I think the real problem here is that Dr. Cox's words are being overinterpreted."

I agree; the real problem is to try to find the right words to describe the situation in terms of a layman's frame of reference while minimizing the possibility of misleading them.
 
  • #103
Exactly. I'm sympathetic of that problem-- we might not all agree with how Dr. Cox negotiates it, but we're all in glass houses on that score. If one person thinks Cox is doing more harm than good by stressing the more mystical elements, another can say he is doing more good than harm by simply getting people interested in some of the more fascinating new elements of what we have discovered. The fact is it might take centuries before we really understand what all this means, remember Feynman's wonderful words about quantum mechanics:
"We have always had a great deal of difficulty understanding the world view that quantum mechanics represents. At least I do, because I'm an old enough man that I haven't got to the point that this stuff is obvious to me. Okay, I still get nervous with it... You know how it always is, every new idea, it takes a generation or two until it becomes obvious that there's no real problem. I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
 
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  • #104
mc^2 said:
If all the electrons in the universe have to be in constant communication to ensure that no two of them are ever in the same state, then this may contradict the principle of conservation of energy. If we control a material in such a way that it's electrons would occupy most of the lowest possible energy states - this would indicate according to Cox explanation that all the other electrons in the universe would have a lower probability to occupy these lowest energy states and a higher probability to exist in higher energy states. This cannot be correct.

It's only a problem if our ability to "control" the material is inconsistent with global unitary evolution. ie is Brian's Cox's choice to rub the diamond any different from a diamond being shifted around underground by a natural process such as an earthquake?

When a supernova explodes it undoubtedly has a significant effect on the state vector of the universe, but it ought to be consistent with unitary evolution according to the Schrödinger Eqn.

Of course, this isn't an issue if you don't believe in macroscopic wavefunctions, especially one describing the entire universe, but in that case you need corrections to the current standard formulation of QM.

The no-communication theorem says a measurement in one place cannot change the probability distribution of any observable outside the future light-cone of the first measurement.

But science has no consensus on the nature of free-will, and such theorems may not apply. However, if free-will does break unitarity in a deterministic way then we may also need a reformulation of relativity since we would otherwise have the possibility of causal paradoxes.
 
  • #105
unusualname said:
Of course, this isn't an issue if you don't believe in macroscopic wavefunctions, especially one describing the entire universe, but in that case you need corrections to the current standard formulation of QM.
Yet that's a pretty small "but". It is a "but" that is more or less the defining quality of science!
The no-communication theorem says a measurement in one place cannot change the probability distribution of any observable outside the future light-cone of the first measurement.
Actually, I don't think the theorem can quite say that. A probability distribution is always contingent upon what you already regard as known, versus what unknowns you are simply averaging over. So changes in knowledge, here, can change probability distributions about distant events, reckoned here, without any causality violations (as in EPR type experiments). Hence, you can reckon that the probability distribution somewhere else, outside your light cone, can be changed by your measurement-- it is just the physicists outside your light cone that cannot know that. It's a question of what any probability distribution is contingent on.
 
  • #106
Ken G said:
The no-communication theorem says a measurement in one place cannot change the probability distribution of any observable outside the future light-cone of the first measurement.
Actually, I don't think the theorem can quite say that. A probability distribution is always contingent upon what you already regard as known, versus what unknowns you are simply averaging over. So changes in knowledge, here, can change probability distributions about distant events, reckoned here, without any causality violations (as in EPR type experiments). Hence, you can reckon that the probability distribution somewhere else, outside your light cone, can be changed by your measurement-- it is just the physicists outside your light cone that cannot know that. It's a question of what any probability distribution is contingent on.

Yes, obviously I meant the probability distribution wrt to the observer observing the observable.
 
  • #107
Disclaimer: Pre-coffee
mornincoffee.gif


I thought that quantum entanglement had to be created by direct interactions between subatomic particles, but this guy says that the entire universe is in this entangled state. I don’t know but I don't like it.

Was Brian Cox Wrong?
This entangled state, which is the whole universe. Essentially, that will choose a particular state for the electron here, which corresponds for a particular state in the electrons on Andromeda.
However, I did find a poor quality video of John Bell stating, “You cannot get away with saying that there is no action at a distance. You cannot separate off from what happens in one place from what happens in another. They have to be described and explained jointly.”

Bell Himself Explaining the Implications of his Inequality

Does it prove that the entire universe is in an entangled state simply because there are methods of creating entanglement? Is quantum nonlocality equivalent to entanglement? Aren’t there limits to quantum nonlocality, e.g. Tsirelson's[/PLAIN] bound?

BTW, doesn’t he look like Johnny Depp as Willy Wonka?

“Oh, you should never, never doubt what nobody is sure about.”~ Willy Wonka
WillyWonka.jpg
 
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  • #108
As far as I know, the discussions on this issue are still ongoing. I thought I'd describe the situation from the viewpoint of my armchair.

Regardless of the discussions regarding whether Brian Cox should perhaps have said “quantum state”, rather than “energy level” in the TV show, this whole discussion has made me try to understand the applicability of the concept of entanglement to a situation such as this. Certainly Cox and Forshaw in their book did have entanglement in mind in connection with this issue, since they state:

There is only ever one set of energy levels and when anything changes (e.g. an electron changes from one energy level to another) then everything else must instantaneously adjust itself so that no two fermions are ever in the same energy level.
The idea that electrons ‘know’ about each other instantaneously sounds like it has the potential to violate Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Perhaps we can build some sort of signalling apparatus that exploits this instantaneous communication to transmit information at faster-than-light speeds. This apparently paradoxical feature of quantum theory was first appreciated in 1935 by Einstein in collaboration with Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen; Einstein called it ‘spooky action at a distance’ and did not like it. It took some time before people realized that, despite its spookiness, it is impossible to exploit these long range correlations to transfer information faster than light and that means the law of cause and effect can rest safe.

Entanglement does indeed allow quantum measurements to display “instantaneous” influences, but no information can be transmitted using this mechanism. But, how would you go about applying entanglement to the scenarios they're discussing?

The model Cox and Forshaw are using is the double rectangular potential well. This model is described here. The energy eigenstates of a single rectangular well are split into pairs of energy eigenstates with very closely spaced energy eigenvalues. One member of a pair is a wavefunction with odd reflection symmetry about the origin and the other has even reflection symmetry.

We now populate the double well system with a pair of fermions. For simplicity, they could be spinless electrons, which would have to be in different states to respect their fermionic nature. As an example, they could be in each of the two lowest energy eigenstates, so the system state would be
|\Psi \rangle={1\over{\sqrt{2}}}(|E_1 \rangle |E_2 \rangle-|E_2 \rangle |E_1 \rangle) \ \ \ (0)

The sort of question we would like to ask is whether or not there is entanglement between quantities measured in the left hand well and quantities measured in the right hand well?

Conventionally, entanglement questions would be treated by decomposing the full Hilbert space in the form
{\mathcal{H}=\mathcal{H_{L}}\otimes\mathcal{H_{R}}}
For example, in the "classic" EPR entanglement scenario, this sort of decomposition is clear - \mathcal{H_{L}} is the two dimensional Hilbert space of spin states of a LH-travelling spin 1/2 decay product of a spin 0 singlet state, and \mathcal{H_{R}} the RH-travelling equivalent.
For any pure state |\Psi\rangle\in\mathcal{H}I can choose an orthonormal basis \{|\Psi^L_{i}\rangle\}for \mathcal{H_{L}} and \{|\Psi^R_{i}\rangle\}for \mathcal{H_{R}} such that
|\Psi\rangle=\sum\limits_{i}\alpha_{i}|\Psi^L_{i} \rangle \otimes|\Psi^R_{i}\rangle \ \ \ (1)
here \alpha_{i} are a bunch of coefficients (which can be chosen to be real and positive). This is the Schmidt decomposition. Given this, a good measure of entanglement - namely the entanglement entropy - can be defined as
S_{A}=-\sum\limits_{i} \alpha_{i}^2log \alpha_{i}^2
The higher the entropy of a state, the more entangled it is.

Now trying to apply this to the double well scenario, we immediately run into trouble, because it is not clear how to perform the decomposition \mathcal{H}=\mathcal{H_{L}}\otimes\mathcal{H_{R}}.

If we want to ask the question "is there any entanglement in the double well model?" a key problem is that the two electrons in the system are indistinguishable fermions, so when one tries to construct a two particle state, it must be antisymmetric in the two electron identities. For example, ignoring spins, the position wavefunction representation of a two particle state might be constructed from single particle wavefunctions as:
\Psi(x_1,x_2)={1\over{\sqrt{2}}}(\psi(x_1)\phi(x_2)-\psi(x_2)\phi(x_1)) \ \ \ (2)
An n-particle state would be the same, except it would be a normalised sum over all the even permutations of x_1,x_2,...x_n minus all the odd permutations. Such states/wavefuctions are sometimes called Slater determinants.

Now, there is a fairly large body of literature around which discusses entanglement in multi-fermion systems. However, much of it is concerned with treating entanglement in systems appropriate to quantum computing - for example entanglement between quantum dots. In these cases, the mere fact that you cannot express a two particle state as a product state, but rather a difference of such, like in (2), is deemed *not* to constitute entanglement. For example Shi defines entanglement in a multi-fermion system to be the inability to express the state (by choosing a suitable single particle basis) as a single Slater determinant (like (2) for the case of 2 particles). In other words, a state is *not* entangled if you *can* express it as a single Slater determinant.

Adopting this definition would immediately rule out the double well energy eigenstate (0) as being entangled – it's a single Slater determinant. But is this criterion really appropriate for the double well discussions? As far as I can tell, the reasoning behind considering (2) as unentangled has immediately made an assumption regarding remote exchange correlations, namely that they can be ignored due to the large separation. Schliemann, whilst arguing the case for using Slater rank as the entanglement criterion states ( where I've substitued the wavefunctions in (2) for his notation) states:

However, if the moduli of \psi(x_1), \phi(x_2) have only vanishingly small overlap, these exchange correlations will also tend to zero for any physically meaningful operator. This situation is generically realized if the supports of the single-particle wavefunctions are essentially centered around locations being sufficiently apart from each other, or the particles are separated by a sufficiently large energy barrier.

So by construction the double-well electrons will be unentangled if we use Slater rank as the entanglement criterion, so this doesn't really help.

There are other approaches to entanglement of fermions, such as the one discussed by Zanardi et al(http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0308043). They state that it is meaningless to discuss entanglement of a state

without specifying the manner in which one can manipulate and probe its constituent physical degrees of freedom. In this sense entanglement is always relative to a particular set of experimental capabilities.
This approach avoids the need to perform the decomposition (1) and instead focuses on the properties of various observables on the state being checked for entanglement. The criterion of Zanardi et al seems quite complex, but its essence is captured in a simpler formulation described in a reference by Kaplan, to which I was referred by PF user Morberticus. Basically the question of whether or not a state is entangled is asked *with respect to a pair of observables* A, and B. A state \Psi is deemed entangled with respect to A, and B if the covariance function
C_{AB}\equiv \langle\Psi|AB|\Psi\rangle-\langle\Psi|A|\Psi\rangle\langle\Psi|B|\Psi\rangle \ \ \ (3)
is non zero.

However, to apply this to our double well system, we need to be able to define the operators A and B appropriate to "making an energy measurement in the LH well" and "making an energy measurement in the RH well".

The only energy operator I can think of that would be consistent in the two-fermion system would be the total energy operator E_1+E_2. This is symmetric in permutation of the electron identities 1 and 2 as it should be. However, to evaluate (3) to check for entanglement, I'm still left with the job of defining a "left hand well energy operator" E^{A}_1+E^{A}_2 and a "right hand well energy operator" E^{B}_1+E^{B}_2.

I've no idea how to do such a thing, and I'm inclined to agree with the conclusion of Arnold Neumaier in his answer to my question on physics stackexchange (http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...surements-in-a-two-fermion-double-well-system), namely that there is no simple way to progress this discussion !
 
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  • #109
Apart from the no doubt important observations made in #108, as a QM outsider it strikes me there is something fishy about bcox's example. Correct me if wrong, but within say a chunk of semiconductor, where electronic wavefunctions appreciably overlap, 'instantaneous' adjustments in energy level are part of the overall energy budget book-keeping - within that notionally closed system. The bcox example of rubbed diamond is merely one part of an energy exchange system, the other being bcox (the diamond rubber). Isn't it the case the proper perspective here is one of a closed system diamond/bcox having zero net energy-mommentum change? So what basis is there for anything outside this net constant energy system to care about? Another example to my mind illustrating this might be an elastic solid bar of non-uniform cross section. Struck with equal impulses at both ends and set into vibratory motion, there will be periodically varying energy levels present. Bar momentum and energy are time invariant overall, yet owing to non-uniformity, at any given instant peak upper and lower energy density excursions will not be symmetrical. But again, will 'the rest of the universe' care at all, as long as net energy of that system is constant? Sorry if these points may have been raised before.
 
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  • #110
The issue, as investigated is detail in #108, is whether or not indistinguishability of particles counts as "entanglement" in quantum mechanics, to the extent that we can say that changing the energy of "one electron" affects them all. But note that the indistinguishability is crucial-- so if we only look at energy conservation issues, and imagine that the "electrons in the diamond" are separate from any with whom they do not overlap, then we are begging the question. The diamond is not a set of electrons, it is whatever is happening that correlates with the coordinates of the diamond's location. There is no "set of electrons" inside a diamond, there is only a number of electrons there-- with no implied connection to which electrons that refers to.

So I think the problem is in the basic language of saying we rub a diamond and it "affects an electron"-- there is strictly no such thing as "an electron" inside that diamond, versus outside of it. Instead there is a state of all the electrons everywhere, and since they are indistinguishable, we can never say "which electron" we affected. We can't say we only affected the electrons "within the diamond" because there's no such thing, so we have to speak in terms of how we affected the dependence of the electron's state with respect to coordinates within the diamond. So we are only changing how the state vector depends on those coordinates, and we are not changing how it depends on causally unrelated coordinates. But that language does not carry over into a statement about "which electrons" we affected, because there is no such thing. So I would say we err equally in saying that we did not affect any "other electrons" as if we said we did affect any "other electrons." The language is just basically incorrect, it doesn't matter whether we claim there is or is not such an effect.

Next we can ask if it's really such a problem that the language is basically incorrect. The language is intended for a broad audience, not for quantum experts. So we should expect it will be basically incorrect. So the real question is, is it basically incorrect in a disastrous way, or does the incorrect language still manage to carry the flavor of, and convey what is amazing or profound about, the correct language? The answer to that can easily vary from person to person, but I personally am not terrible exercised about that particular way of conveying the surprising aspects of particle indistinguishability in quantum mechanics.
 
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  • #111
Been a while since this thread started, and had forgotten many prior inputs. But I did recall this from the OP's #1:
The gist of it was that all the electrons in the universe have to be in constant communication to ensure that no two of them are ever in the same state. If he changed the energies of electrons in a diamond, by heating it in his hand, all the other electrons in the world would have to adjust their energies too.
Ken G, I take your point in #110 this is not just about energy levels, but Cox did say electron energy levels everywhere else would need to adjust, and that's what #109 was trying to address. OK so the state of all electrons is where it's at. Is there experimental confirmation though of truly instantaneous state/energy adjustments of the type discussed here? #107 expresses things pretty well imo (but how many will wade through that third link?!).
 
  • #112
I was thinking about this again (now that i have had free time after exams :P) and just wanted to know if the effect described by Brain is just entanglement. I mean the system of all electrons can be in several different states, and in all of them electrons have slightly different energies. Then measuring*one electron would make all ellectrons "collapse" to certain energies. Is it this? because I can't think of any other spooky action in qm apart from entanglement. And anyway why do all the electrons have to have different energies in each possible state anyway? The only reson I can think is what people have said that at each position the potential energy due to relative distance to protons etc is different. Please is this right? Because if so, no one here makes it clear!
Thanks!
 
  • #113
Q-reeus said:
Is there experimental confirmation though of truly instantaneous state/energy adjustments of the type discussed here? #107 expresses things pretty well imo (but how many will wade through that third link?!).
I get uncomfortable with the word "instantaneous", because it doesn't really mean anything. States reflect knowledge of a system, and when your knowledge changes, the state changes "instantaneously" (or at least as fast as your brain works), but that's a statement about how you regard the system's state, nothing has to "happen to" the system itself. In particular, the "state of the system" might not change at all for someone else, especially if they are outside the light cone of the measurement that changed your opinion of the particle's state. I would say that a "state" really just means "knowledge about the preparation of a system", so thinking about it that way strips the term "instantaneous adjustments" of its mystery.
 
  • #114
guillefix said:
I was thinking about this again (now that i have had free time after exams :P) and just wanted to know if the effect described by Brain is just entanglement. I mean the system of all electrons can be in several different states, and in all of them electrons have slightly different energies. Then measuring*one electron would make all ellectrons "collapse" to certain energies. Is it this it?
Entanglement is a somewhat different concept usually, because it is often applied to particles that are distinguishable but are well separated. When particles are indistinguishable and not well separated, they exhibit different types of correlations (like the Pauli exclusion principle) that are generally not what is meant by "entanglement" (but I suppose one could call it that also). However, when you have indistinguishable particles that are well separated, it is no longer clear if their indistinguishability matters any more-- to the extent that they can be distinguished by their separation, they have become distinguishable, but to the extent that their wave functions still overlap a tiny bit, they may yet exhibit the kinds of effects that are special to indistinguishable particles. Entanglement is a term that is often reserved for correlations that have nothing to do with distinguishability and does not require wave function overlap. So I'd say the semantics become a bit unclear here.

because I can't think of any other spooky action in qm apart from entanglement.
The force that keeps a white dwarf star from collapsing under its own gravity is pretty "spooky", but it is not action "at a distance", because the particles are very tightly packed together. It is called "degeneracy pressure", is related to the Pauli exclusion principle, requires indistinguishability of the electrons, and is generally not considered in the same breath as "entanglement."

And anyway why do all the electrons have to have different energies in each possible state anyway?
I think Brian is imagining that perfect degeneracy (precisely the same energy in two different states) is formally impossible, just because nothing is ever perfectly equal. Of course, we should not expect quantum mechanics to be perfect either, so the distinction is a bit forced, and energy degeneracy is often a useful concept in practice.
 
  • #115
Ken G said:
Entanglement is a somewhat different concept usually, because it is often applied to particles that are distinguishable but are well separated. When particles are indistinguishable and not well separated, they exhibit different types of correlations (like the Pauli exclusion principle) that are generally not what is meant by "entanglement" (but I suppose one could call it that also). However, when you have indistinguishable particles that are well separated, it is no longer clear if their indistinguishability matters any more-- to the extent that they can be distinguished by their separation, they have become distinguishable, but to the extent that their wave functions still overlap a tiny bit, they may yet exhibit the kinds of effects that are special to indistinguishable particles. Entanglement is a term that is often reserved for correlations that have nothing to do with distinguishability and does not require wave function overlap. So I'd say the semantics become a bit unclear here.

The force that keeps a white dwarf star from collapsing under its own gravity is pretty "spooky", but it is not action "at a distance", because the particles are very tightly packed together. It is called "degeneracy pressure", is related to the Pauli exclusion principle, requires indistinguishability of the electrons, and is generally not considered in the same breath as "entanglement."

I think Brian is imagining that perfect degeneracy (precisely the same energy in two different states) is formally impossible, just because nothing is ever perfectly equal. Of course, we should not expect quantum mechanics to be perfect either, so the distinction is a bit forced, and energy degeneracy is often a useful concept in practice.

Ok, so then Brian's effect comes from the indistinguishability of electrons and the fact that the wavefunctions overlap. So I guess that means that if there are two protons A and B with two electrons A and B say, if I measure the electron in proton A, it might be either electron A or B, thus the only way for it to there be two electrons is if they have sligthly distinct energies.

Furhtermore, I think that what Brian said that if you heat this diamond it will "change" the electrons in that star is referring that the electrons are in a pure entangled state of the two slightly different energy levels, and if I collapse this one to one state by heating it or something, then it will ""change"" the electron in the star, really it has just collapsed it too. I just read wikipedia for indistinguishability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_particles) and although some parts I can't follow I do get that indistinguishable fermions are in the entangled state I just described. Also I think that the state that distinguishable fermions can have is just an approximation for infinitivelly separated fermions or ones which wavefunctons don't overlap for some reason. As you say, for these ones you get "normal" entanglement.

So as I understand it, both types of correlations are a kind of entanglement, they are just caused for different reasons (one is caused by wavefunction overlapping and PEP; and the other by all other causes of entanglement like electron spin interaction etc)


Ken G said:
I think Brian is imagining that perfect degeneracy (precisely the same energy in two different states) is formally impossible, just because nothing is ever perfectly equal.

What you mean? I thought that quantum mechanics predictions were exact as far as we know. So for distinguishable particles you could get perfect degeneracy, even in the real world, wouldn't you? Say in the BEC, you get bosons that are perfectly degenerate don't you? Unless uncertainty principle does something..

Lastly, for the case of the two protons, or any case really, if a new electron just popped out somewhere it will be distingishable until its wavefunction spreaded and reached other wavefunctions, won't it? And this wavefunctions don't travel faster than c, dont't they?
 
  • #116
guillefix said:
So as I understand it, both types of correlations are a kind of entanglement, they are just caused for different reasons (one is caused by wavefunction overlapping and PEP; and the other by all other causes of entanglement like electron spin interaction etc)
Yes, personally I wouldn't have any issue with calling them both forms of "entanglement", as long as the important distinctions are made clear, though it might not be standard lexicon.

I thought that quantum mechanics predictions were exact as far as we know.
I just mean the "as far as we know" part. Been there, done that, 2000 years of science and so forth. Quantum mechanics is a mathematical structure that applies to idealized versions of the real world and gives incredible accuracy under certain rather special conditions. It isn't consistent with general relativity at the Planck scale, and so forth, but more than likely it will break down at much larger scales than that, given the many orders of magnitude of untested parameter regimes. Also, it reduces to classical mechanics in the limit of large quantum numbers, so in that limit, it can only be as exact as classical mechanics, so encounters the same need to idealize complex systems in order to make progress. What gets thrown out when we idealize complex systems? That's unknown, because the more complex the system gets, the more things we choose not to try and know about that system.

So for distinguishable particles you could get perfect degeneracy, even in the real world, wouldn't you? Say in the BEC, you get bosons that are perfectly degenerate don't you? Unless uncertainty principle does something..
BEC are for indistinguishable particles, so they all sample the same states and can find the same one, so there is no degeneracy in the states there (degeneracy doesn't mean multiple particles in the same state, it means multiple states at the same energy).

But even if there were for some reason multiple states at the same energy, there'd be other quantum numbers to distinguish those states, and Brian Cox could have referred to them instead of talking about energy. I don't know exactly what he meant, but to me the point is that when the particles are indistinguishable, you have to focus on the differences in the states rather than the differences in the particles. If you do something to change those states, or change the accessibility of the states, then all the indistinguishable particles sample that change, expressly because they are all indistinguishable.
Lastly, for the case of the two protons, or any case really, if a new electron just popped out somewhere it will be distingishable until its wavefunction spreaded and reached other wavefunctions, won't it? And this wavefunctions don't travel faster than c, dont't they?
Yes, I think one could make a case that completely non-overlapping wavefunctions create some form of distinguishability among otherwise indistinguishable particles. So I would tend to think that only the other indistinguishable particles within the light cone of rubbing the diamond would gain access to new states, possibly contradicting his claim that they would all respond instantly. But who knows, maybe Brian Cox would ask how do you know the states are completely non-overlapping, do you know the entire history of the universe and can assure that no correlations persist from the Big Bang? This is a tricky area, involving both indistinguishability and relativity, so it's a hard problem. I think Brian is in effect deciding to frame his comments in the context of nonrelativistic quantum mechanics, which is like taking c to be infinite.

Bear in mind that we don't really make statements about reality unless we are giving specific experimental outcomes-- instead we give interpretations of theories about reality, and this requires that we choose a theory to begin with, and try to convey the essence of that theory to nonspecialists. Conveying the essence of some theory to nonspecialists should really be distinguished from making claims on how reality works "behind the curtain" where we never see.
 
  • #117
Well my point is that he might be right that it's an instantaneous effect if this correlation between particles behaves the same way as entanglement, which I think it does, that's why i like calling it so.. In this way possibly all particles in the observable universe are entangled in this way. Anyway, when talking about universal wavefunctions, we can just say some nice comment about the essence of our theory as you say, because trying to make any kind of predicition about reality taking into accoun the whole universe is ridicously hilarious. Still, I'm sure the ideas that come from these thought experiments will be of use in the future of both physics and technology. LOL in fact I just remember what Cox said that it is necessary to explain covalent bonds and transistors (of course, as you say we shall distinguish these kinds of things from giving essences of ideas to people). I just got to read his book!
 
  • #118
Ken G said:
I get uncomfortable with the word "instantaneous", because it doesn't really mean anything. States reflect knowledge of a system, and when your knowledge changes, the state changes "instantaneously" (or at least as fast as your brain works), but that's a statement about how you regard the system's state, nothing has to "happen to" the system itself. In particular, the "state of the system" might not change at all for someone else, especially if they are outside the light cone of the measurement that changed your opinion of the particle's state. I would say that a "state" really just means "knowledge about the preparation of a system", so thinking about it that way strips the term "instantaneous adjustments" of its mystery.
At the risk of more going around in circles on this one, way I see it there either is or isn't physically real 'instantaneous adjustments' a la bcox's claim there is. If there is, how can that not imply instantaneous signalling? Example - a single fibre of say diamond is subject at one end to rapid mechanical or electrical stimulation such that energy states there are modulated. If wavefunction overlap meaningfully extends universe wide, how much more within a continuous crystaline fibre of say a meter long! Hence there aught to be an appreciable instantaneous effect the other end. Which can be experimentally directly compared to e.g. conventional c limited signalling via optical fibre. My guess - nothing here worth rushing out to patent! If bcox still looks in on this thread, maybe he might care to comment.
 
  • #119
Q-reeus said:
At the risk of more going around in circles on this one, way I see it there either is or isn't physically real 'instantaneous adjustments' a la bcox's claim there is. If there is, how can that not imply instantaneous signalling? Example - a single fibre of say diamond is subject at one end to rapid mechanical or electrical stimulation such that energy states there are modulated. If wavefunction overlap meaningfully extends universe wide, how much more within a continuous crystaline fibre of say a meter long! Hence there aught to be an appreciable instantaneous effect the other end. Which can be experimentally directly compared to e.g. conventional c limited signalling via optical fibre. My guess - nothing here worth rushing out to patent! If bcox still looks in on this thread, maybe he might care to comment.

I think that FTL signaling is not possible because of the same reason that in Bell's experiment. Imagine you have the two electrons and protons. You increase the energy of the electron in proton A by a certain amount. What is the energy of the electron? You don't know, the electron in proton A was in a entangled state of having either energy 1 or 2, and when you add a bit, it will just be in an entangled state of energy 1' or 2'. You can then measure it to find out, but then the outcome is random, so not signaling possible. Finally, once you have measured it, you know the energy of the other electron, so you could say: aha I'll move my electron to that energy and so the other electron'll have to move. However, I think that because the wavefunction has 'collapsed' the two wavefunctions are now non-overlapping and the particles distinguishable (Ken G refers to collapse as to "your opinion of the particle's state", but i just used collapse now because it's shorter). Furhtermore when the wavefuntions eventually overlap (wether they do FTL or not) the two particles will become entangled againm, so you find yourself in the same situation. So in reality you are not chaging anything about the state of the universe while heating the diamond, the closest thing you are doing is changing your perspective of it, and you can't use this to signal, because the perspective is random.
 
  • #120
guillefix said:
I think that FTL signaling is not possible because of the same reason that in Bell's experiment...
Not really; as pointed out by Ken G in #114, 'mere' correlation entanglement you talk about here is not the same as PEP, which bcox claims means instantaneous energy level shifts as per in OP. OK one cannot deterministically predict a shift at any particular lattice position but there must if true be an ensemble mean value shift that is predictable. Either true or false and surely subject to experimental verification.
 

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