A night with the stars (Brian Cox on telly)

  • Thread starter Thread starter dgwsoft
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Stars
  • #51
md2perpe said:
There is no real difference between electrons associated with a fixed crystal lattice and electrons separated by a billion light years. They all have to be in different states. And the states are universal.

Can you explain that a bit more, obviously without using the words Pauli exclusion principle, use of which I believe would be called a tautology?
More specifically can you explain how Professor Cox rubbing his diamond in London can affect electrons where you are, let alone on the other side of the universe?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #52
ColinW said:
md2perpe said:
There is no real difference between electrons associated with a fixed crystal lattice and electrons separated by a billion light years.
The electrons don't know if they are bound or free; they (rather: their wave functions) merely adjust to potentials. The wave functions cover all of universe but their amplitudes are differently distributed. For electron bound to a lattice, the amplitude is high inside the lattice, but low almost directly outside of it.


ColinW said:
md2perpe said:
They all have to be in different states. And the states are universal.
Can you explain that a bit more, obviously without using the words Pauli exclusion principle, use of which I believe would be called a tautology?
Since this is the Pauli exclusion principle and it's not valid for all types of particles, I cannot explain this without reference to the Pauli exclusion principle.


ColinW said:
More specifically can you explain how Professor Cox rubbing his diamond in London can affect electrons where you are, let alone on the other side of the universe?
No, I can't. I don't agree with Prof. Cox. I do agree that states are universal, but not that adding energy would force all electrons to adjust.
 
  • #53
My apologies. When I said "difference" I meant difference between the situations, not difference between the electrons.
I am actually quite happy to accept the Pauli exclusion principle (although I can't really understand it) and I accept its implications with regard to things like semiconductor energy bands. There is enough evidence for me to see that something is clearly happening and PEP is as good an explanation as any.
It was Professor Cox's universal (and apparently instantaneous) electron shuffling that I can't accept.
 
  • #54
So, in summary.. it isn't instantaneous?
 
  • #55
In my view no distant adjustments are even needed, so there's no question "is it instantaneous?"
 
  • #56
gibbson_e said:
So, in summary.. it isn't instantaneous?

You'd think it is instantaneous. If the particles in question followed the exclusion principle, one particle jumps into a new state currently occupied by another particle, then the other particle would need to jump to another state to satisfy the principle. At no point should the two particles share the same state.
 
  • #57
StevieTNZ said:
You'd think it is instantaneous. If the particles in question followed the exclusion principle, one particle jumps into a new state currently occupied by another particle, then the other particle would need to jump to another state to satisfy the principle. At no point should the two particles share the same state.

I respectfully disagree for reasons given in post 44 in this thread - I am not sure energy can be well defined at some point in time. So if the energy is not quite definite, you cannot say with certainty that the two particles are in the same state.
 
  • #58
becox said:
Dear all,

There is an intimacy between the particles that make up our Universe that extends across the entire Universe. It is ephemeral in the sense that for particles that are far apart the different energies are so close to each other as to make no discernable difference to our daily lives.

Brian

But the fact that these differences become effectively unmeasurable for systems being considerably far appart is formalized under the name "cluster decomposition principle" and occupies quite a fundamental position in quantum field theory. Explicitly it is used to rule out quantum field theories with other statistics like multidimensional or projective representations of the permutation symmetry group (see e.g. "quantum field theory" by S. Weinberg).
From that point of view the Fermi and Bose statistics are the only statistics which lead to the notion of independent systems at large distances due to the exponential fall off of energy level splittings below not only any practical level of precision relevant for our daily lives but below any imaginable level however small we may choose it.
 
  • #59
#58 provides a resolution in terms of exponential fall off with distance of energy level splittings. This still seems to imply there is iaaad (instantaneous action at a distance) but it gets too feeble to matter. Consider the following as a possible counterexample to iaaad. Suppose we have a normally conducting two-wire TL (transmission line), shorted at both ends A and B. End A is magnetically linked to a small coil energized with a near instantaneous voltage pulse. By transformer action we expect an induced emf that travels the length of the TL at near light speed as a voltage-current pulse. We do not expect the far end B to know anything about the event at A until the pulse arrives. What though if the TL is wholly superconducting - all superconducting Cooper paired electrons share the single ground state wavefunction. So if there is any spooky aaad going on, B should somehow be instantly effected by event at A, right? But that would break the taboo of instantaneous communication. So what kind of iaaad can be going on in this situation that physically means anything at all?
 
  • #60
I think one possible path out of the morass of worrying about whether all the electrons in the universe are "instantaneously" connected is to simply notice that there is really no requirement for us to imagine that there is any such thing as "all the electrons in the universe", as independent real entities. If we imagine they are independently real but indistinguishable, we have to wonder how they can be somehow connected to each other. But it seems to me, the whole point of indistinguishability is that the particles are not actually separate objects in the first place. So, they are connected by virtue of not being different, rather than by virtue of being different but indistinguishable.

Let's see this by turning the question around-- instead of thinking about a bunch of electrons, and ask what states they are in, let's start by thinking about a bunch of states, and asking whether or not they are occupied by an electron. In other words, let's treat the states, and their presence or absence of occupation, as what is real, rather than the electrons (all we need to know about the electrons is how many there are, a separate constraint on the reality of the states). Since the electrons are indistinguishable, when we ask "is this state occupied by an electron", we never need to ask "which electron", only yes or no is it occupied.

Now if we asked, is the occupation of one state "connected to" the occupation of the other states, we would have to say yes-- there are only so many electrons to go around, so every state that is occupied reduces the access of every other state to electrons. Hence if I measure a particular energy state as being occupied by an electron in some star, let's say, and if all the states have nondegenerate energies, then this measurement will affect the expected occupation number of every other state in that star because that information has changed the environment of all those electrons in some very small way. Without getting into the possible distinctions between what is actually real and what we can know about what is actually real, we have to allow that when our description of the reality changes instantaneously, then for all scientific purposes, the reality itself has changed instantaneously. Certainly no other observer will get a contradictory result to that, because our conception of the full reality must include all the experiences of the observers everywhere. So when one person rubs a diamond, the reality is instantaneously different, and it is instantaneously different everywhere because it is all one thing, but this cannot be used to send signals or propagate "effects" faster than c.
 
Last edited:
  • #61
While the example given in #59 obeyed BE statistics (in particular a BE condensate), not FD stats as per becox's rubbed diamond. the issue is whether a commonly shared wavefunction changes instantly in any physically real manner. Suppose the exciting coil at A received a step current; then the superconducting TL is obliged to *finally* exhibit a reverse current that exactly cancels any magnetic flux linkage from the coil. Although all Cooper pairs will then continue to occupy the ground state following magnetic linkage with the coil at end A, the wavefunction state is different before vs after - a magnetically linked SQUID detector at B will indicate a change in phase etc. Point was the system as a whole surely settles into the new configuration no differently than a notionally classically perfectly conducting TL - there is a continuous train of reflected pulses that typically decays quasi-exponentially with time. I see no possibility of any instantaneous linkage of any kind between ends A and B - despite the shared single wavefunction.

In #60 Ken G argues that the answer is to see the universe as a kind of "Bohmian whole" (my interpretation!) where electrons have no independent existence - yet the final upshot being yes, there is instantaneous linkage but no instantaneous signalling results. Cannot see that thinking in terms of state occupancy rather than electrons occupying states changes the issue materially - we are still left with an untestable hypothesis of instantaneous linkage (akhmeteli's comments in #44 and #57 are relevant to the notion of 'instantaneous'). In what way exactly is the scenario in #59 and elaborated above an invalid counterexample? Seems to me that change to that single supercurrent wavefunction has to be negotiated among the constituent Cooper pairs over an extended time interval, in accordance with SR causality.
 
  • #62
Ken G said:
instead of thinking about a bunch of electrons, and ask what states they are in, let's start by thinking about a bunch of states, and asking whether or not they are occupied by an electron.
That's how I think about it.
 
  • #63
md2perpe said:
Ken G: "instead of thinking about a bunch of electrons, and ask what states they are in, let's start by thinking about a bunch of states, and asking whether or not they are occupied by an electron."
That's how I think about it.
Hmm...two gamma ray photons anti-annihilate to create an electron-positron pair. So am I to believe the wavefunctions of said freshly created pair instantly span the entire universe - which btw some cosmologists believe to be many orders of magnitude larger than the horizon limited ~ 13.7 bly portion visible to us. If not, how exactly can the totality of all states be truly universal and instantaneously adjustable? Such questions probably just shows how little I know of QM.
 
  • #64
Q-reeus said:
... how exactly can the totality of all states be truly universal and instantaneously adjustable? ...

Is there any reason we shouldn't think of it in the same way that a state for an entangled EPR-style pair of particles can span vast distances, but still lack the capability for FTL signalling ?
 
  • #65
sheaf said:
Is there any reason we shouldn't think of it in the same way that a state for an entangled EPR-style pair of particles can span vast distances, but still lack the capability for FTL signalling ?
This is heading into territory I tend to avoid. Whatever the nature of entanglement truly is, it is integral to such Bell type tests and typically involves just two particles. A far cry surely from the scenario of instantaneous adjustment of all FD electron states throughout the universe - there is afaik no suggestion of universal entanglement. We know that the still dream of quantum computing is plagued with the problem of just how delicate entanglement is and how exponentially sensitive it is to the number of entangled states. Anyway would like some expert feedback on the superconducting TL scenario - I remain sceptical to 'instantaneous' in general.
 
  • #66
Q-reeus said:
This is heading into territory I tend to avoid. Whatever the nature of entanglement truly is, it is integral to such Bell type tests and typically involves just two particles. A far cry surely from the scenario of instantaneous adjustment of all FD electron states throughout the universe - there is afaik no suggestion of universal entanglement. We know that the still dream of quantum computing is plagued with the problem of just how delicate entanglement is and how exponentially sensitive it is to the number of entangled states. Anyway would like some expert feedback on the superconducting TL scenario - I remain sceptical to 'instantaneous' in general.

Yes, most discussions of entangled states are concerned with EPR scenarios and involve just a pair of particles. But isn't it true that multiparticle states, for example states describing a system with many electrons, are antisymmetrized products of single particle states, and these are entangled. I'm assuming that the definition of an entangled state is something I can't separate into a tensor product of single particle states. That certainly applies to the multi-electron state doesn't it ?

I guess the question is - would you always describe a multi electron system by an antisymmetric product like that ? If I create an electron at x1 and create a second electron at x2 and have (maybe effectively) an infinite barrier such that they can't interact (i.e. their wavefunctions can't overlap), then I wouldn't describe the system by an antisymmetric state - it would be a separable system. But if they're not separated, they can interact in principle, and then I do have to use the entangled state.

What I'm not sure is how relativity comes into this. I guess it's something to do with cluster decomposition, which someone mentioned earlier - I'll have to read up on that.
 
  • #67
sheaf said:
Yes, most discussions of entangled states are concerned with EPR scenarios and involve just a pair of particles. But isn't it true that multiparticle states, for example states describing a system with many electrons, are antisymmetrized products of single particle states, and these are entangled. I'm assuming that the definition of an entangled state is something I can't separate into a tensor product of single particle states. That certainly applies to the multi-electron state doesn't it ?
Well I know of that definition re tensor product inseparability, but was unaware it applied to say electronic states in the metallic state in general. However your view appears to be backed up by the following passage from: 'Spin Entangled Systems' http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=spin-entangled%20electrons%20in%20solid-state%20systems&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CD0QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheorie.physik.uni-konstanz.de%2Fburkard%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fpdf%2Feent_web.pdf&ei=Zzr_TuaMAq-QiQfu6_GhAQ&usg=AFQjCNGQvkNSUYRhPPjrhu7SUe_3sN1CCA&cad=rja
"Entanglement is not uncommon in solid-state systems. On the contrary, entanglement is the rule rather than the exception in the low-energy states (say, the ground state) of inter-acting many-particle systems. However, such “generic” entangled states are not necessarily useful for quantum information processing. A criterion for the usefulness as a resource is that there must be a realizable physical mechanism to extract and separate a “standard” pair of entangled particles such as the EPR pair in Eq. (1) from the many-body system in such a way that the two particles can be used for quantum communication. This is often complicated by the indistinguishability of the particles: in this case, a state that “looks entangled” when written out in first quantized notation might not be entangled in an operational sense (i.e., there may not be any physical procedure that separates the particle while maintaining their entanglement). Mathematically, this is related to the fact that the Hilbert space for several identical particles is not a tensor product when proper antisymetrization is taken into account. Measures of entanglement which take into account the indistinguishability of particles have been introduced"

Given the role of environmental decoherence, I can only imagine such condensed matter entanglements are fleetingly made and broken, but will leave it to the experts.
 
  • #68
So far I'm not sure just what conclusions to reach, so
A few questions:

1]What is the 'proof' that becox refers to in the film segment: That in 1967 a consequence of the Pauli exclusion principle was proved that no two electrons anywhere in the universe can be in precisely the same energy levels….

2] Why should we believe the model referenced by becox actually applies to the universe? For example, does an infinite potential well correctly model our universe?

3] Someone said this is a non relativistic QM model? Is that important? How would a relativistic version differ?

4] I thought that there are problems with defining the energy of the gravitational field in general relativity, as one complicating factor [so many physicists prefer to say that energy is not globally conserved in GR]...given that, how can anyone conclude there is any likelihood of electrons being in the same energy state throughout the universe.

As a side observation, I do like models such as this because they do cause us to think about thing in new ways. So even if a particular model doesn't pan out, the thinking accompanying it could well lead to new insights and new approaches.
 
Last edited:
  • #69
Q-reeus said:
In what way exactly is the scenario in #59 and elaborated above an invalid counterexample? Seems to me that change to that single supercurrent wavefunction has to be negotiated among the constituent Cooper pairs over an extended time interval, in accordance with SR causality.
I can agree that no wavefunction can change instantaneously if it would allow FTL communication if it did so. But there are many types of wavefunctions that can change instantaneously without allowing FTL communication. I don't see the wavefunction as a unique entity, I see it as a tool in the head of a physicist. Thus, two physicists can use two different wavefunctions in the same situation and still both be "correct", in the limited sense that "correctness" appears in physics. So one physicist's wavefunction might change instantaneously everywhere, even when a physicist outside their light cone might use the previous wavefunction, and both might get consistent results. So the rule for objectivity is not that everyone lives in the same reality, it is that no two observers' realities can be inconsistent with each other. This also means that "complete information" does not imply a unique description of the reality, it merely implies access to all the information that is locally available to that observer in principle. The locality of the information is what preserves causality.
 
  • #70
Ken G said:
I can agree that no wavefunction can change instantaneously if it would allow FTL communication if it did so. But there are many types of wavefunctions that can change instantaneously without allowing FTL communication. I don't see the wavefunction as a unique entity, I see it as a tool in the head of a physicist. Thus, two physicists can use two different wavefunctions in the same situation and still both be "correct", in the limited sense that "correctness" appears in physics. So one physicist's wavefunction might change instantaneously everywhere, even when a physicist outside their light cone might use the previous wavefunction, and both might get consistent results. So the rule for objectivity is not that everyone lives in the same reality, it is that no two observers' realities can be inconsistent with each other. This also means that "complete information" does not imply a unique description of the reality, it merely implies access to all the information that is locally available to that observer in principle. The locality of the information is what preserves causality.
This may be a consistent worldview but leaves me dissatisfied. At the end of the day, we are still left with the need for instantaneous influence no matter how spatially separated (or does a cosmic horizon set the limit?). If it can be shown transistors would not work without truly instantaneous state adjustments, then perhaps there is no choice but to accept. Decided to actually watch becox's expose tonight - especially the bit about instant adjustment of energy levels universe wide. There is no way known such a claim/theory can ever be observationally confirmed to that level. Assuming though for the moment it is actually correct, the only half-way rational worldview I'm familiar with that then makes sense is the Cramer transactional interpretation. If I have it right it implies basically a kind of grand conspiracy where every single interaction is prenegotiated from the very beginning (how much information can be crammed into a 'point singularity' again?). Which presumably also tallies with the block universe concept. Not my cup of tea.
Anyway - best for new year to all.
 
  • #71
Naty1 said:
1]What is the 'proof' that becox refers to in the film segment: That in 1967 a consequence of the Pauli exclusion principle was proved that no two electrons anywhere in the universe can be in precisely the same energy levels….
A small piece here, 3rd paragraph under 'Stability of matter': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle#Stability_of_matter , but nothing said about universal reach.
2] Why should we believe the model referenced by becox actually applies to the universe? For example, does an infinite potential well correctly model our universe?
As pointed out in #66, an infinite potential well would kill universal linkage - the usual assumption is a finite potential well of infinite extent (but as per #58, ultra feeble at large r).
3] Someone said this is a non relativistic QM model? Is that important? How would a relativistic version differ?
Do you mean PEP itself? The above Wiki has something to say here under 'The Pauli principle in advanced quantum theory': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_...he_Pauli_principle_in_advanced_quantum_theory
4] I thought that there are problems with defining the energy of the gravitational field in general relativity, as one complicating factor [so many physicists prefer to say that energy is not globally conserved in GR]...given that, how can anyone conclude there is any likelihood of electrons being in the same energy state throughout the universe.
This article may be of interest: http://www.physorg.com/news200060488.html
 
  • #72
Q-reeus said:
There is no way known such a claim/theory can ever be observationally confirmed to that level. Assuming though for the moment it is actually correct, the only half-way rational worldview I'm familiar with that then makes sense is the Cramer transactional interpretation.
I don't think CI would have any trouble with it, because CI asserts that the wave function is merely a calculational tool, so can change instantaneously as information about the system changes.
 
  • #73
In accord with many other postings, the extension of Pauli's exclusion principle form 'atom' to 'universe' was quite an alien concept to me in Brian Cox's TV 'show'. Although a scientist, I am not a theoritical physicist, but it strikes me that in none of the subsequent postings to this thread does it appear to be have been considered just what the consequences are/might be (from a quantum viewpoint) of: what if he is wrong? Would it imply total (instantaneous) collapse of the 'universe' to a 'singular' state, because everything, potentially, was equal? Conversely, might it be because no energy state of any conceivable 'particle' can be replicated absolutely within the universe, that the universe as we know/understand it does in fact exist? I think there are some fundamental issues here that might require theoretical considerations beyond my wit to comprehend!
 
  • #74
There is a post on the first page which clarifies the argument above quite clearly. Well it did for me anyway. The change in states are inmeasurable so no evidence can ever be gathered to prove it happens but the idea follows as a consequence of the exclusion principle. Read the article it might clarify the situation for you as well.
 
  • #75
There is a post on the first page which clarifies the argument above quite clearly. Well it did for me anyway. The change in states are inmeasurable so no evidence can ever be gathered to prove it happens but the idea follows as a consequence of the exclusion principle. Read the article it might clarify the situation for you as well.

Immeasurable to what degree? Within a single atom, can the change of electrons be measured? How about for the other atoms in near touching proximity?
 
  • #76
have you read the article?
 
  • #77
I think an important thing to clarify is the difference between statements like "this is true about the world" versus statements like "this follows from the most literal interpretation of theory X." I believe Brian Cox's statement about the effects on the states of all electrons when one rubs a diamond has the latter flavor, but can sound like it has the former flavor, and this may be the source of much of the difficulty here. Dr. Cox may himself even believe the former flavor, I wouldn't speak for him, but I think only the latter type can be correctly asserted.
 
  • #78
Q-reeus: thanks for the attemopt to clarify things in post #71..,
not very encouraging as far as becox claims are concerned...

...As pointed out in #66, an infinite potential well would kill universal linkage...

yes but as I understand things, that's an infinite potential between systems, not two systems within the same potential well...so it doesn't seem to apply to the becox scenario of one well for the entire universe.

I had already seen the wiki comment about "advanced quantum theory"...multiplying by 'i' fails to inspire as well when I went looking for anything on "relativistic quantum theory"...I know nothinmg about it...I still wonder what it means when we don't have a unified theory...
 
  • #79
The underlying idea is that close approach of an electron to the nucleus of the atom necessarily increases its kinetic energy, an application of the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg.[3] However, stability of large systems with many electrons and many nuclei is a different matter, and requires the Pauli exclusion principle.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle#Stability_of_matter

I read the above a few days ago and did not stop to consider "uncertainty"...If the difference in energy states is an issue among electrons worrying about what energy they are allowed, how do they get beneath Heisenberg uncertainty? Seems rather moot.
 
  • #80
Naty1 said:
Q-reeus...As pointed out in #66, an infinite potential well would kill universal linkage...

yes but as I understand things, that's an infinite potential between systems, not two systems within the same potential well...so it doesn't seem to apply to the becox scenario of one well for the entire universe.
Naty1 - I don't think he's talking about a single well though. The diamong is basically one system with it's own 'well' (with something like 3 million billion billion well levels as I recall the piece), and the rest of the universe is a conglomerate of everything with their own 'well complexes' - and much which is entirely free of a potential well in the usual sense (interstellar plasma etc).

The first link given in #20 is worth reading over again: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/18527/does-the-pauli-exclusion-principle-instantaneously-affect-distant-electrons There are enough points raised there, especially the 3rd last entry, to invalidate the notion of meaningfully discrete state shifts 'from afar' even assuming instantaneous influence. Further, on the theoretical justification for instantaneous connection, Lubos Motl has something interesting to say in entry 5 at: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/11003/what-causes-the-pauli-exclusion-principle-and-why-does-spin-1-2-fermion/11013#11013 - especially 3rd paragraph. Maybe some here will disagree with Motl, but those remarks seem clear enough.
 
  • #81
action at a distance

I was listening to the lecture by Brian Walsh on the BBC over the New Year and was taken aback by one of his statements.
Is this really true?

I think he was saying that ,if you have any object in a system, then it has a characteristic that is completely unique to it (can't recall the terminology...)
If one of these objects (an electron , for example) absorbs energy then every other object in the universe is affected instaneously because each object is required to be unique.

This means (in my mind ) that if we strike a match in Manchester that something happens simultaneously on the Moon.

Can anyone tell me if I have got the wrong end of the stick here?
I know Quantum Theory is meant to be ridiculous but does that go too far?
 
  • #82


geordief said:
I was listening to the lecture by Brian Walsh on the BBC over the New Year and was taken aback by one of his statements.
Is this really true?
Do you mean Brian Cox?

geordief said:
I think he was saying that ,if you have any object in a system, then it has a characteristic that is completely unique to it (can't recall the terminology...)
If one of these objects (an electron , for example) absorbs energy then every other object in the universe is affected instaneously because each object is required to be unique.

This means (in my mind ) that if we strike a match in Manchester that something happens simultaneously on the Moon.
I would guess that, wrt a god's eye view of things, that if you strike a match in Manchester that something happens simultaneously on the Moon, or the Sun, or Jupiter, etc. But I would suppose that none of it has anything to do with your stiking a match in Manchester.

geordief said:
Can anyone tell me if I have got the wrong end of the stick here?
I know Quantum Theory is meant to be ridiculous but does that go too far?
Yes, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Quantum theory isn't meant to be riduculous, but it can be made so by unwarranted interpretations. Brian Cox's stuff is meant to entertain, not inform. So don't take it literally.
 
  • #83


geordief said:
I was listening to the lecture by Brian Walsh on the BBC over the New Year and was taken aback by one of his statements.
Is this really true?

I think he was saying that ,if you have any object in a system, then it has a characteristic that is completely unique to it (can't recall the terminology...)
If one of these objects (an electron , for example) absorbs energy then every other object in the universe is affected instaneously because each object is required to be unique.

This means (in my mind ) that if we strike a match in Manchester that something happens simultaneously on the Moon.

Can anyone tell me if I have got the wrong end of the stick here?
I know Quantum Theory is meant to be ridiculous but does that go too far?

Yes. It is technically true. In technical terms, this simply reflects the requirement that the wavefunction of a system of fermions must be antisymmetric, and the assumption that there is at any particular time a single wavefunction that contains all fermions in the universe. However, of course when we write a wavefunction for a solid on the earth, we don't expect to have to take account of the fermions on the moon to get a really good approximation. I cannot remember the argument that the fermions on the moon can be neglected for all practical purposes, but it is found in Shankar's QM text http://books.google.com/books?id=2zypV5EbKuIC&source=gbs_navlinks_s (around p275, search for "moon"!).
 
Last edited:
  • #84
Theads merged.
 
  • #85


ThomasT said:
Do you mean Brian Cox?

.
yes - that was a silly mistake.Brian Walsh is my local garage man.
I don't think there is any connection.:blushing:
 
  • #86
What's more, even technically we should probably avoid language like something "happening simultaneously" on the Moon. Relativistic quantum mechanics must respect the limit of causal effects to propagate at less than c, so it is only what we regard as happening on the Moon that is altered simultaneously to the change in what we regard as happening in Manchester. What is "actually" happening on the Moon is a matter for people on the Moon to decide authoritatively, given the local limitations on the act of doing observations. I guess you can call me a positivist!
 
  • #87


geordief said:
yes - that was a silly mistake.Brian Walsh is my local garage man.
I don't think there is any connection.:blushing:
:smile: Apparently, according to Brian Cox, your mistake might not (in some sense) really be a mistake. And anyway Brian Walsh is a lot closer to any of us than the moon (not that that matters). As atyy and others have pointed out, what Brian Cox said can be considered technically correct. But as Ken G and others have pointed out, it's important how formal QM is translated into ordinary language, because its precise relationship to nature is very much a matter of interpretation.

I'm still of the opinion that Brian Cox's popular presentations are meant to entertain, and not necessarily to inform or clarify -- and that it remains for each of us to learn enough of the technical theory to decide for ourselves when and if the mathematical formalism might be translated literally into ordinary language statements about nature.

So, there you have it. Brian Cox's (and anybody else's) popularizations can be taken to be correct statements about reality or nature ... or not, depending on how one chooses to interpret the mathematical formalism.
 
Last edited:
  • #88
becox said:
Seems to be some confusion here about the Pauli Principle.

http://www.hep.manchester.ac.uk/u/forshaw/BoseFermi/Double Well.html

Brian

Seems to be some confusion here about far apart and isolated atoms. Personally, I think it was intentional, to push a new book.

When they are far apart and isolated, the atoms have identical energy levels. However, as the spacing between the two atoms becomes smaller, the electron wave functions begin to overlap. Antibonding orbital are repulsive and act to destabilize the molecule as a whole..”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibonding

Lec 14 | MIT 5.111 Principles of Chemical Science

Double Twit Experiment – What Brian Cox Gets Wrong
 
  • #89
In my opinion, that last link is unpleasant and unjustified. If framed as a list of constructive criticisms for Cox to consider in his next presentation, it would only have been presumptuous. As it is, it is a vitriolic diatribe with no apparent reason for existing other than to express a very large chip that the author seems to carry for Dr. Cox. It makes one wonder if Brian kicked sand in his face when they were kids! I only found it interesting for the nice clips it gives of other lecturers, but it is no kind of critique of Dr. Cox that people like Feynman give great lectures. They can all have their own style, and the audience can be allowed to decide their preferences.
 
  • #90
Ken G said:
In my opinion, that last link is unpleasant and unjustified. If framed as a list of constructive criticisms for Cox to consider in his next presentation, it would only have been presumptuous. As it is, it is a vitriolic diatribe with no apparent reason for existing other than to express a very large chip that the author seems to carry for Dr. Cox. It makes one wonder if Brian kicked sand in his face when they were kids! I only found it interesting for the nice clips it gives of other lecturers, but it is no kind of critique of Dr. Cox that people like Feynman give great lectures. They can all have their own style, and the audience can be allowed to decide their preferences.
Hello,

I am the author of the review "Double Twit Experiment – What Brian Cox Gets Wrong", as linked by others.

I came across this thread after Cox's BBC show and linked to it in the blog article. I was surprised to notice a few days later that someone on the forum had linked back to what I had written, and that many people are reading it via this thread.

For Ken G and others who may find my comments 'unjustified', allow me to elaborate a little.

I am a maths and physics graduate who has taught physics in secondary schools in the UK for around 6 years. During this time, I've thought quite carefully about which parts of scientific inquiry are worth teaching - which ideas and skills are valuable.

For classroom teaching, there is inevitably a conflict of interested when we consider how long a student might stay in science education. Some, who will go onto further study, need to be equipped with particular skills and informed of specific ideas. Those who will go on to do other things after high-school will likely find little benefit from these skills. I'm talking about learning how to use a micro-metre, or learning which of Newton Laws is which.

However, there is much of scientific inquiry that is valuable to everyone, regardless of specialisms. Most important of all, any citizen will benefit from understanding the process of scientific thinking. The role of evidence in falsification, what constitutes a scientific theory, how logic is utilized to determine consequences of a theory, the imaginative guesses that bring about new theories. All of this equips a person with thinking skills and understanding they can apply to enrich their lives, and their understanding of the latest research.

Values to extract from this include: anti-authoritarianism, fallibilism, logical analysis, philosophical reflection and courageous imaginations.

Let's suppose you think this is too abstract or challenging. Which parts of physical theory might be valuable knowledge to everyone? Some basic knowledge of Newtonian mechanics, descriptive optics, electrical circuits would be a good start. Sure, they approximations for theories we now know to be closer to the truth, but if taught well they will not impede possible future study.

So what to do with a 1 hour presentation? Now, I'm sure there will be much noise about how producers won't agree to programs that present these 'old' ideas. But Cox seems to command a lot of respect - they have already agreed to let him give a one hour lecture with a blackboard.

It is disappointing that he has decided to present something so esoteric, yet mostly rely on intellectual intimidation and argument from authority to establish the results. Sure, he tried some underrehearsed explanations and demonstration, but the material was far too broad for even the greatest of educators to do a good job.

So what is the result? We have people who think they are interested in science, credulously parroting the latest scientific ideas to each other at the dinner table.

Most dangerous of all, it encourages already arrogant students to presume they have understood an idea, when they have merely remembered some impressive words. I have met many students who have tried to explain black holes to me, or something about string theory. I always fell a sympathy that these curious minds have been duped by yet another shallow presentation of scientific inquiry.

Or, there are the adults I meet who tell me they are 'really interested in science' and then ask me about m-theory, or black-holes.

"Why do some object float in water?" I ask them. Most of them have nothing to say about this. Now I ask you, if a person cannot connect the perceptions of their experience with scientific patterns, what is the possible value in describing the theoretical intricacies of the latest research?

In short, I think presentations like Cox's contributes to a social game that people play, to impress and stupefy. But not to understand.
 
  • #91


atyy said:
Yes. It is technically true. In technical terms, this simply reflects the requirement that the wavefunction of a system of fermions must be antisymmetric, and the assumption that there is at any particular time a single wavefunction that contains all fermions in the universe. However, of course when we write a wavefunction for a solid on the earth, we don't expect to have to take account of the fermions on the moon to get a really good approximation. I cannot remember the argument that the fermions on the moon can be neglected for all practical purposes, but it is found in Shankar's QM text http://books.google.com/books?id=2zypV5EbKuIC&source=gbs_navlinks_s (around p275, search for "moon"!).

unfortunately the relevant pages 274,275 are not available in my google books preview. But if you have a (free) amazon account you can just search for the word 'moon' in the 'Look Inside!' view




(The relevant section starts on p 273 called 'When Can We Ignore Symmetrization and AntiSymmetrization?')

The point is that the the type of effect Cox tried to popularize, is in fact completely negligible in practice, even if quantum mechanics, as we currently formulate it, is exactly theoretically correct. But he did link to lecture notes where this point was made explicit to ~50 decimal places in his first post on the thread (several weeks ago)
 
  • #92
James_Sheils said:
Hello,

I am the author of the review "Double Twit Experiment – What Brian Cox Gets Wrong", as linked by others.

In short, I think presentations like Cox's contributes to a social game that people play, to impress and stupefy. But not to understand.

Bravo, well said. I enjoyed your review. The internet is plagued with so-called wisdom. For those of us who are interested in science, but wish to avoid the pseudo-junk altogether, can you tell us how to find trusted sources?

Wikipedia can be a good starting point, right? From there you can check all the references to see if the authors are from a university, research facility, or published in a reputable journal. Peer reviewed is more reliable and clearly, arXiv is not peer reviewed. It can contain some dubious e-prints but most of the authors care about what they write. If the website ends with .gov or .edu it’s probably a good source, right? Can you think of anything thing else to add?

List of Scientific Journals

How the Scientific Peer Review Process works

Misconceptions about science

What is Science?

P.S. If you’re such a stickler, here’s a suggestion for your next write up.

Why does a photon slow down in a medium?

There are tons of explanations out there. Here is ZapperZ’s explanation from in here and another from yahoo. Is either of these explanations accurate? If not, then perhaps you could provide a better one on your blog.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=899393&postcount=4

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090918084206AALZBC5
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #94
SecularSanity said:
Bravo, well said. I enjoyed your review. The internet is plagued with so-called wisdom. For those of us who are interested in science, but wish to avoid the pseudo-junk altogether, can you tell us how to find trusted sources?

Thanks for your kind words.

I agree that Wikipedia is a good starting point. Contrary to popular opinion, Wikipedia has a very high fidelity, in physics at least. I hear from specialists in other fields, such as art history, that the pages do not generate enough interest from editors to be reliable. However, in physics there seems to be a good supply of specialist contributors. The only disadvantage I have found is that for a non-specialist, the pages can be difficult to understand. But Wikipedia is a reference source, not an educational program.

I agree with what you say about the other sources, but would always read them with a skeptical mind. As I mentioned in the article, I think the best source for basic physics comes from Walter Lewin's MIT course.

As for the photon question, that's a pretty difficult one to answer, and I can't claim to fully comprehend all the details of modern theory!

I think the explanation you linked was right to avoid single atom explanations, but did not address the faulty assumptions in the question.

As the Double Slit Experiment aims to elucidate, we are not able to measure what happens between a photons emission and its arrival without changing the conditions sufficiently to alter the experiment. And the double slit experiment summarized the very counter-intuitive results concerning detection of photons. They arrive as particles, but do not seem to behave as particles on their journeys.

Encapsulated in the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is a policy of not trying to speculate about 'where the photon goes' from source to detector.

We might have some mathematical equipment to calculate the probabilities of where the photon might end up, but we don't (or can't) know which path it took. Indeed, QED calculations assumed you need to consider every permissible path to determine the probabilities. So we can't appeal to the mathematical calculations for a satisfactory answer.

Thus, to as 'why' and expect a deterministic 'then the photon does this...' type of narrative asks too much of quantum mechanics.

But, the question could be answered by describing why the extra calculations for the material seems to delay the probability of a photon's arrival, compared with it traveling through empty space. I don't have sufficient quantum mechanical answer for this!
 
  • #95
James_Sheils said:
I am a maths and physics graduate who has taught physics in secondary schools in the UK for around 6 years. During this time, I've thought quite carefully about which parts of scientific inquiry are worth teaching - which ideas and skills are valuable.
So have many of us. Do you recognize that this practice generates in you a number of opinions, that can be expressed without automatically assuming yours is the complete and final truth of the matter? The most important element of the art of advancing an opinion is the high regard for decorum, civility, and the right to respectfully disagree. Polemic diatribes are both easy, and tempting, but often limit their impact to a relatively small set of die-hard afficionados.
Most important of all, any citizen will benefit from understanding the process of scientific thinking. The role of evidence in falsification, what constitutes a scientific theory, how logic is utilized to determine consequences of a theory, the imaginative guesses that bring about new theories. All of this equips a person with thinking skills and understanding they can apply to enrich their lives, and their understanding of the latest research.
Absolutely, essentially any science educator would agree with that. The issue is, does each person who gets on the internet for a half hour or hour presentation need to feel responsible for all that, or is this more logically the mission of the science educator in the classroom setting?
Values to extract from this include: anti-authoritarianism, fallibilism, logical analysis, philosophical reflection and courageous imaginations.
I agree completely, and indeed from your comments on Dr. Cox I formed the opinion that you are most likely both very capable, and very dedicated, in your science education mission. You probably teach very well, and linked to others who do also. But none of those facts actually justify that vitriolic critique. Not everyone needs to adopt the same mission that you would, in order to be considered of value to science in some objective or demonstrable way. In short, they do not necessarily need to submit to your judgement of their performance. The question is, what audience is your criticism intended for? If you want Brian Cox to pay heed, the tone would rule that out-- I doubt he would read past the first few paragraphs. If your goal is to get people who like to listen to him to boycott him and listen to others that meet with your approval, I doubt you'll have much success-- those inclined to agree with you have probably already formed a similar opinion and don't seek out Dr. Cox's presentations, and those who like them will most likely not be dissuaded, because they simply won't agree with you. If you want to reach that crowd, I think you'd do better with your own presentation-- enlighten and entertain in your own way, achieving those goals that you value, and reach that clientele in that manner. That would accomplish the same goal, but more effectively than a largely unfocused critique-- it's easier to teach than to unteach.
So what to do with a 1 hour presentation? Now, I'm sure there will be much noise about how producers won't agree to programs that present these 'old' ideas. But Cox seems to command a lot of respect - they have already agreed to let him give a one hour lecture with a blackboard.
And this is the fundamental flaw in your position. Here you suggest that your goal is to convince Brian Cox to use his hour differently. Do you really think the way you presented your position is likely to accomplish that? Your comments are not even directed to Dr. Cox, they are directed to people who would listen to him. So your goal is clearly not to get Dr. Cox to use his hour more effectively, which would be a constructive goal (though presumptuous), it is to get those who would listen to his hour to avoid it or join in the Brian-bashing. How is that going to teach people Newton's laws?

What's more, you are overlooking the fact that there may be a reason that Dr. Cox is getting this hour (and a blackboard!), and neither you nor I are-- he has proven the ability to entertain and energize his viewers. Personally I think I could put together something that would be entertaining and enlightening also, which you might find less occasion to criticize if we share similar educational values, but I'm not going to get the opportunity to reach such a huge audience. I'm just not, the issue is moot. So I can see value in a certain trade-off there-- yes, perhaps there is an overemphasis on what is titillating rather than what is good basic science, but it's not such a bad exchange to get these ideas out there to people, to help them see that scientists are not just in ivory towers discovering arcane looking equations that somehow helps us build better iPads. Instead, we are getting glimpses deep into the workings of our reality, and getting quite amazed in the process, and we are inclined to want to share some of that experience with a larger audience.
It is disappointing that he has decided to present something so esoteric, yet mostly rely on intellectual intimidation and argument from authority to establish the results. Sure, he tried some underrehearsed explanations and demonstration, but the material was far too broad for even the greatest of educators to do a good job.
OK, so maybe not everything he did worked as well as it could have, and maybe he can learn some lessons for next time. He probably knows that, or if he doesn't, a simple constructive comment might be all that would be needed. What's the purpose behind all the bashing? That's what I really think you should look at more closely, what is really pushing your buttons here? For example, why do you think that his primary motivation is to make himself feel smart? I think it's pretty clear what his primary motivation is, it is to share with others some of the amazing glimpses he feels he has gotten into our reality. Of course it's also fun to feel smart, and of course it's also a rush to be able to entertain, I hardly think we can criticize the comedian for liking to hear a house full of laughter!
Most dangerous of all, it encourages already arrogant students to presume they have understood an idea, when they have merely remembered some impressive words. I have met many students who have tried to explain black holes to me, or something about string theory. I always fell a sympathy that these curious minds have been duped by yet another shallow presentation of scientific inquiry.
But this is unavoidable. Do you really think this never happens to your students? At least the people in question are interested in something that connects with science-- the alternative may be the absence of any of that.
Or, there are the adults I meet who tell me they are 'really interested in science' and then ask me about m-theory, or black-holes.
OK, but the point is, maybe they would not have said they were interested in science and then talked about Newton's laws! That's what you have to include in your calculations. I have had some small success getting people jazzed about Newton's laws, but the fact is, it's just a lot harder-- the number of people who are going to feel that way is just less than it is for the wilder stuff. That I believe is Dr. Cox's primary motivation for his subject selection, not the desire to feel smart.
"Why do some object float in water?" I ask them. Most of them have nothing to say about this. Now I ask you, if a person cannot connect the perceptions of their experience with scientific patterns, what is the possible value in describing the theoretical intricacies of the latest research?
It is simply not an either/or propositon.
In short, I think presentations like Cox's contributes to a social game that people play, to impress and stupefy. But not to understand.
And there's certainly some truth to that. This is a valid criticism that can be raised, but it doesn't make what Dr. Cox is doing worthless or damaging to people's minds, they come to it because it gives them something they like, and it is certainly connected with science. I think it does a lot more good than harm, and if it could be improved in some way, who among us could escape that criticism? None of this justifies that vitriol, even though there are valid aspects to the points you raise.
 
Last edited:
  • #96
James_Sheils said:
Thanks for your kind words.

And thank you for the reply.

Sorry, but I couldn’t resist. However, I’ll refrain from linking the video. :biggrin:

You’re young, handsome, and your accent makes you sound intelligent, but here’s some womanly advice. Critics should cover their own butt and stick to the bare necessities, don’t cha think? What’s up with the banana? :eek:

Thanks again.

Cheers!
 
  • #97
There are several science programs on bbc tv and radio, some more populist than others. Brian Cox's are more at the entertainment end of the scale, but I for one quite enjoyed the four episodes in The Wonders of The Universe series, for example (even with the ott music in the first series of broadcasts).

The target audience is certainly not elitist types, and you should probably avoid these programs if you have 'a stick up your bottom' attitude to such populist science.

There're always the online lectures of Susskind for example if you want a dry Diracesque introduction to QM. Feynman's style can be seen in the Messenger Lectures http://www.microsoft.com/education/...es/articledetails.aspx?cid=1936&c1=en-us&c2=0 (requires silverlight - microsoft compatible only) , I personally doubt his double-slit lecture (lecture 6) will enlighten the uninitiated any more than Cox's attempts.
 
  • #98
I am still surprised by what was said about the consequences for electrons throughout the Universe of warming a diamond in one's hand. For a start, diamond is an electrical insulator with a large energy gap of more than 5 electron volts whereas the average thermal energy of an electron at room temperature (3/2 kT) is only 0.04 eV. Increasing this by at most 5% falls far short of the minimum needed to cause any electrons to jump into higher energy levels (assuming the "box of carbon atoms" contains no impurities); it will just cause the atomic lattice to vibrate a bit more.

Ignoring anomalies (if any?) caused by relativistic effects such as electron creation and annihilation or the lack of any FTL signals, the Pauli Exclusion Principle does of course hold for all electrons everywhere, regardless of whether they are pictured as bound to nuclei, zipping along on their own at almost the speed of light or just drifting about in a plasma.

The double-well example is fine as far as it goes, but only bound states corresponding to fixed separations of the wells are considered. In a gas, unless two nuclei are part of the same molecule, they will not usually remain a fixed distance apart and therefore will not give rise to a set of stationary states with exact electron energy levels.

I think I'm right in saying that at present, the conventional view of astronomers is that a good 90% of ordinary (baryonic) matter (nearly all H) is in the plasma state. If this is correct, then around 90% of all electrons are not bound to any nuclei at all!

When two of these "free" electrons are in relative motion, there could always be some inertial observers for whom their energies are equal alongside others for whom they are unequal. Therefore, I do not see how it is possible in general to substitute rules about electron energies for the basic requirement of antisymmetry of the electron component of the total wave-function, a property which is both observer-independent and permanent.

I agree of course that quantum mechanics does imply that "everything is connected to everything else" through entanglement, but I don't think the scenarios chosen to illustrate this amazing idea were at all convincing.
 
  • #99
becox said:
Seems to be some confusion here about the Pauli Principle. Jeff Forshaw and myself write about it in detail in our book The Quantum Universe, chapter 8. The essential point is that two widely separated hydrogen atoms should not be treated as isolated systems. If you'd like to see how we teach this to undergraduates in Manchester, have a read of this:

http://www.hep.manchester.ac.uk/u/forshaw/BoseFermi/Double Well.html

But I do also recommend our book, because the argument is extended to explain semiconductors.

doodyone - in particular, I suggest you pay close attention, especially if you're an undergraduate. You might up your degree classification!

Brian

If it is the case that electrons occupy slightly different energy levels, then wouldn't it follow then the spectra would show similar subtle variations? In Chapter 11 of the Quantum Universe, it mentions the "Lamb Shift" and this is accounted for by factoring in particle interactions within the atom. Wouldn't this Lamb Shift be undetectable if there is also a certain "arbitrariness" about the actual energy levels? Or is it a question of scale? Or maybe, I haven't understood!
 
  • #100
dgwsoft said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018nn7l

I did enjoy Brian Cox's program on quantum mechanics last night, but one bit left me thinking "no, that's not right!".

The gist of it was that all the electrons in the universe have to be in constant communication to ensure that no two of them are ever in the same state. If he changed the energies of electrons in a diamond, by heating it in his hand, all the other electrons in the world would have to adjust their energies too.

I think this may have been an attempt to show that entanglement follows from the Pauli exclusion principle, but was it a simplification too far?

The Pauli principle confused me when I first heard it at school: did it mean that no two hydrogen atoms in the universe could be in their ground states simultaneously? I have always understood, since then, that it doesn't mean that, because which proton the electron is bound to is part of its state. So "in the first energy level around this proton" is a different state from "in the first energy level around that proton".

The exclusion principle states that no two electrons can be in the same *state* not, as Cox seemed to be implying, that they may not have numerically the same energies. That is not forbidden as far as I know. We would not see nice spectral lines from billions of hydrogen atoms all making the same state transition at the same time, if it was.

I now know there is a deeper explanation of the exclusion principle, namely that the multi-particle wave-function of a half-integral spin particle is antisymmetric, and that means the probability of finding two of them in the same place is zero. So OK, Pauli and entanglement are connected. But I always like a simple explanation if one is available. What does the panel think? Did what Cox said amount to a good explanation for a general audience, or does it risk perpetuating a misunderstanding?

If all the electrons in the universe have to be in constant communication to ensure that no two of them are ever in the same state, then this may contradict the principle of conservation of energy. If we control a material in such a way that it's electrons would occupy most of the lowest possible energy states - this would indicate according to Cox explanation that all the other electrons in the universe would have a lower probability to occupy these lowest energy states and a higher probability to exist in higher energy states. This cannot be correct.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top