A question about property of liminf and limsup

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of liminf and limsup in the context of sequences, particularly focusing on the behavior of the product of two sequences under certain conditions. The participants explore the implications of the positivity or negativity of the sequences involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that if \( x_n \geq 0 \) and \( y_n \geq 0 \), and \( \lim_{n \to \infty} x_n \) exists, then \( \limsup_{n \to \infty} (x_n \cdot y_n) = (\lim_{n \to \infty} x_n) \cdot (\limsup_{n \to \infty} y_n) \).
  • The same participant questions whether an analogous equation holds if \( \lim_{n \to \infty} x_n < 0 \) and asks what changes to the conditions would be necessary to achieve this.
  • Another participant suggests proving the first result and emphasizes the importance of the positivity assumption on \( x_n \) to understand how the results change when \( x_n \) is negative.
  • A different participant introduces the "sign trick," stating that \( \liminf (-a_j) = -\limsup(a_j) \) and applies this to derive a relationship involving \( x_n \) when it is negative.
  • This participant concludes that for \( x_n < 0 \), the relationship can be expressed as \( \limsup (x_n y_n) = \lim(x_n) \cdot \liminf(y_n) \).
  • Another participant expresses appreciation for this idea, indicating a positive reception to the proposed approach.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the analogous equation for the case when \( x_n < 0 \). There are competing views on how to approach the problem and whether the proposed relationships hold under the specified conditions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the need for careful consideration of the conditions under which the properties of liminf and limsup apply, particularly regarding the positivity or negativity of the sequences involved. Specific assumptions and the implications of changing these assumptions remain unresolved.

zzzhhh
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If [tex]x_n\geq 0, y_n\geq 0[/tex] and [tex]\lim \limits_{n \to \infty }x_n[/tex] exists, we have [tex]\limsup\limits_{n\to\infty}(x_n\cdot y_n)=(\lim\limits_{n\to\infty}x_n)\cdot(\limsup\limits_{n\to\infty}y_n)[/tex]. But if [tex]\lim\limits_{n\to\infty}x_n<0[/tex], do we have analog equation(I guess [tex]\limsup\limits_{n\to\infty}(x_n\cdot y_n)=(\lim\limits_{n\to\infty}x_n)\cdot(\liminf\limits_{n\to\infty }y_n)[/tex])? and what change should be made to conditions to achieve the analog equation? Formal source of reference such as textbooks or webpages is recommended. Thanks!
 
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Do you know how to prove the first result? Make a proof, take a careful look to see where you used the assumption that x_n is positive, and then it should be clear how things become changed when you assume x_n is negative.
 
As always with liminf and limsup, use the sign trick!
[tex]\liminf (-a_j)=-\limsup(a_j).[/tex]
If x_n<0, then -x_n>0, so we can apply your result (in the form [itex]\liminf(a_jb_j)=\lim(a_j)\liminf(b_j)[/itex] for a_j,b_j nonnegative and a_j convregent, i.e. sup replaced by inf) to get:

[tex]\limsup (x_ny_n)=-\liminf (-x_ny_n)=-\lim(-x_n)\liminf(y_n)=\lim(x_n)\liminf(y_n)[/tex]
 
Thank you Landau, it's really a good idea!
 

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