A Really Good Discussion of the Zombie Argument

[confutatis]

I mean it is easy to claim that an uncomprehendable idea is simply created through words games. This way, we don't have to challange the status quo.

Fliption, the statement above means you are at least a century late when it comes to philosophy. Go learn about analytic philosophy, then we'll talk.

Sorry I have waisted your verbal primping time with reasonable critiques.

There! A meaningless word game! Anyone can claim to be offering reasonable criticism, even when they're not. Most of the time, what I get from you (and Sleeth) is beside-the-point psychobabble about my ego. You may consider that reasonable criticism; I consider it rubbish.

 

[Fliption]

Fliption, the statement above means you are at least a century late when it comes to philosophy. Go learn about analytic philosophy, then we'll talk.

Ok, let's talk.

There! A meaningless word game! Anyone can claim to be offering reasonable criticism, even when they're not. Most of the time, what I get from you (and Sleeth) is beside-the-point psychobabble about my ego. You may consider that reasonable criticism; I consider it rubbish.

I can accept this. But if what I'm saying or asking is not reasonable, I usually expect someone to explain to me why. I have spent a lot of time trying to slowly go through your view step by step. I do this generally by asking questions. When I get to a point I don't understand or seem to disgree with based on the premises, I question the apparent inconsistency. This process usually gets me where I'm going. But it hasn't worked with you. You respond to about 1/8 of my post and ignore some of the most important parts. The things you do answer eventually go in a circle and lead me right back where I started and by this time the tone is defensive. The whole time, I'm taking patronizing jabs about how foolish everyone is for not seeing what you see. Who can blame me for being frustrated? The odd thing is, I have absolutely no agenda with you. I suspect we agree in the end. I am truly trying to understand your view. Since I don't have these issues understanding others, the conclusions I make are to be expected.

Did the thought ever occur to you that the reason you can't explain your view is because you don't understand it well enough yourself?

BTW, I think Lwsleeth was critiquing your discussion style which is clearly within the scope of a forum such as this. I don't see any psychobabble about your ego.

 

[confutatis]

Did the thought ever occur to you that the reason you can't explain your view is because you don't understand it well enough yourself?

Fliption, between kindergarten and the last year of university, I spent almost twenty years of my life in school. By the time I learned how to solve a problem in electromagnetism using the four Maxwell equations, I knew more than I could possibly explain in a whole book, let alone a few posts I write during coffee breaks at work.

According to your reasoning, if I try to explain Maxwell's equations to you and you fail to understand it, I should think I don't understand them myself. But I don't judge my knowledge based on my ability to condense a lifetime of learning in a few paragraphs written in haste.

Enough said.

 

[Fliption]

Fliption, between kindergarten and the last year of university, I spent almost twenty years of my life in school. By the time I learned how to solve a problem in electromagnetism using the four Maxwell equations, I knew more than I could possibly explain in a whole book, let alone a few posts I write during coffee breaks at work.
Enough said.

Wow. You must drink a lot of coffee! :surprise:

I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree. I'm just suggesting that there may be other alternatives to "no one can understand it but you". I would hope that, in time, if nothing changes, these alternatives would be considered.

 

[confutatis]

Wow. You must drink a lot of coffee!

You have no idea... my job often gets boring to death, but I still must remain stuck to this computer the whole day long. It's a modern form of slavery.

I'm just suggesting that there may be other alternatives to "no one can understand it but you".

I never said no one can understand it, but I'm fully aware that some new concepts can be extremely difficult to explain, because they require understanding of hundreds, often thousands of concepts on which the new concept is based. If you don't understand the concepts underlying an idea, it is impossible to understand the idea. You can't understand Maxwell's equations if you don't fully understand differential calculus; you can't understand the stuff I'm talking about if you don't have a good grasp of analytic philosophy.

I would hope that, in time, if nothing changes, these alternatives would be considered.

I sincerely hope you be more realistic and don't expect me to teach you things it took me years to learn. I can point the way to go if you want to go, but I can't take you there myself.

If you're really interested in this subject, Wittgenstein's Tractatus is one of the best starting points. You may also find the philosophy of logical positivism helpful to understand some of the concepts I've mentioned here. For some reason I can't quite explain, the writings of Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman have also been quite influential on my understanding of consciousness, but I realize you can't benefit much from those if you don't have a solid understanding of physics.

Apart from that, the best I can give you are "cryptic" answers to your difficult questions. It is my perception that you tend to oversimplify things; in reality very few things are simple enough that we can understand them in a rational way.

 

[Fliption]

You have no idea... my job often gets boring to death, but I still must remain stuck to this computer the whole day long. It's a modern form of slavery.

I relate.

I sincerely hope you be more realistic and don't expect me to teach you things it took me years to learn. I can point the way to go if you want to go, but I can't take you there myself.

Apart from that, the best I can give you are "cryptic" answers to your difficult questions. It is my perception that you tend to oversimplify things; in reality very few things are simple enough that we can understand them in a rational way.

Since I don't understand the view you're espousing, I have no choice but to allow for this reference to an understanding of underlying concepts and fields of study. But I hope this lecture will eventually be given to everyone else posting here that doesn't understand what you're saying. I think the point in my previous post still stands.

While you may think I've oversimplified things, I can honestly say that I have been asking for external sources all along. I've gotten one, I think. I'll be glad to look up these additional things you've posted here a bit more, even though I have already read much of this.

 

[confutatis]

Since I don't understand the view you're espousing, I have no choice but to allow for this reference to an understanding of underlying concepts and fields of study.

In all honesty, I don't think you should really waste time with this. The only thing you will gain from learning what I know is that you would understand me better - then you would say "what, is that all the big deal? That's trivial!". I know nothing of any significance that you don't already know; I consider philosophy a form of diversion, sort of like putting puzzles together. A lot of hard work but no real accomplishment other than the fun of doing it.

While you may think I've oversimplified things

I meant it in the sense that you ask me difficult questions, such as "is litmus paper conscious", and expect me to give you a short answer that makes sense.

 

[Fliption]

In all honesty, I don't think you should really waste time with this. The only thing you will gain from learning what I know is that you would understand me better - then you would say "what, is that all the big deal? That's trivial!". I know nothing of any significance that you don't already know; I consider philosophy a form of diversion, sort of like putting puzzles together. A lot of hard work but no real accomplishment other than the fun of doing it.

Ahhh man. I wish you'd have said this a long time ago.

I meant it in the sense that you ask me difficult questions, such as "is litmus paper conscious", and expect me to give you a short answer that makes sense.

I think that was a rhetorical question trying to peel the onion to figure out exactly what your view was saying. It wasn't meant to be answered literally.