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A small black hole goes thru a toroidal hole.

  1. Apr 2, 2013 #1
    If a small round black hole is traveling normal to the center of the major plane of a larger toroidal black hole, is it possible any energy will "get thru" to the other side of the toroid?
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    It's said that once you wander into a BH, you can't get out. It's like a tar pit but worse. Maybe there's hope yet.
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    It seems like a few things could occur: The whole thing might collapse into a spherical hole. Or perhaps it's impossible to hit the center exactly, so the smaller hole will bleed off in one direction, and spiral-in due to frame drag. Or, some of the smaller hole could be pulled into the larger one in a disc and some of it might come thru the other side. Perhaps with enough velocity, it might get thru clean, but ringing like a bell. The small hole has spin too. That would shape the event.
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    Thx for your kind attention
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    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 2, 2013 #2
    What models a 'toroidal black hole'??
     
  4. Apr 2, 2013 #3
    Almost sounds like Poplowski's torsion model, but thats just a guess
     
  5. Apr 2, 2013 #4
  6. Apr 2, 2013 #5
    The Poplowski article leaves me wondering what theory provides that electrons and positrons are sent in the same direction in the same magneticly induced jet? My naive expectation would be that they would be sent in opposite directions.
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    Some kind of helical wrap-around maybe? It's hard to imagine.
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    Re my original question, my instinct is that the faster the little black hole goes, the more mass/energy it contributes to the system. It can add more mass/energy via its kinetic energy than it contains in mass, and all this mass in a small place adds up to collapse of the whole shebang to a sphere . This, before any sizable mass/energy is ejected out the other side of the toriod, by amplifying the velocity.
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    Note, i'm not licensed to practice Cosmetology. i could enquire at the local beauty college, however.
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  7. Apr 2, 2013 #6
    Just shooting from my hip here, but why wouldn't electrons and positrons go in the same direction? The magnetic fields will just make them swirl around in opposite rotating directions, but still in the same trajectory/path.


    As to your torodial black hole, I'm lost on that one. I would think that would leave a naked singularity which was a no-no.
     
  8. Apr 2, 2013 #7
    Thanks for responding Bo.
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    Yeah, Spivey sourced by Mordred kind of covered that. [i mistakenly identified the article as Poplowski's.]
    Spivey wrote:
    "...BHs of
    spherical topology are not expected to retain significant electrical
    charge. It is argued that tori exhibit a vital difference.
    When a rotating torus accumulates charge, the circulating
    current establishes a poloidal magnetic field. Lines of magnetic
    flux encircle the torus but nowhere intersect its surface.
    Nearby the surface, flux lines are orthogonal to the current
    flow and parallel to the surface itself. Sufficiently intense
    magnetic fields constrain the motion of accreting plasma,
    obliging its constituent particles to follow helical trajectories
    which wind about lines of flux...." The same should happen to particles in the jet.
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    Sounds kind of like a straw Chinese Finger Trap structure.
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    Still, it's hard to imagine why pair annihilation wouldn't exhaust electrons and positrons quickly as they cross paths. But he also says:
    "...A particle travelling through the ergosphere might disintegrate
    into two particles, one of which plunges headlong
    towards the event horizon whilst the other emerges from the
    ergosphere and escapes to ‘infinity’, e.g. as part of a jet. Energy
    is extracted if the emergent particle fragment has more
    energy than the originally intact particle, with the captured
    fragment carrying negative energy into the BH. The Penrose
    process efficiency improves if the particles have relativistic
    incident velocities, particularly those opposing the BH’s rotation...."
    So the pair annihilation can enhance the ultimate output, and increase the jet energy, by using up the spin momentum of the BH to send particles to infinity. That's the way i read it anyway.
    .
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    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  9. Apr 2, 2013 #8
    Here is a more recent article I found on Tori magnetic fields

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0601678v3.pdf

    this article had it as a reference I was looking to see if toroidal was included

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/1104.5499v3.pdf

    the second one is a collection of formulas in regards to accretion disk/jets Wasn't able to find why they had the other article referenced but hats due to limitted time looking at the two
     
  10. Apr 3, 2013 #9
    Mordred,
    i think i have most of the answer to my question:
    Freidman's Topological Censorship theorem implies that a light ray cannot pass through the central toroidal hole before the topology becomes spherical. This seems to result from the non-trivial topology of the ring structure. The same would hold for a smaller BH, since a photon, being massless, would have the better chance of getting through. i'd expect a change in momentum of the system, or perhaps some stuff to get knocked out the other side, indirectly.
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    Inevitably, as far as i can tell, the torus will eventually use up it's spin by powering it's jet, and when the spin is slow enough, the thing is expected to collapse. Opinions exist that the topological transition from torus to sphere would be accompanied by a large energy release.
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    Accretion, can add spin. But the question i ask doesn't describe a usual scenario for accretion, since my massive object would be coming in perpendicular to the hole. i can't figure whether this might ultimately slow down the spin, but i'll guess yes, since i have no reputation to uphold.
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    As for mood: at the social level, mood explains why we tire of one fashion, and seem to need the new. But mood itself is unexplained. As Greenspan said [paraphrasing], at his peak he understood pretty much everything about Economics except fads. He called them "manias." Thus, economists too understand NOTHING!
    .
    Be not perturbed. Nobody knows nuthin', 'bout your wife or anyone else. The difference is, we don't get no Nobel Prizes! And don't worry about that dust up with King Arthur, peeps will forget all about it, surely.
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    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  11. Jul 21, 2013 #10
    But does anybody know anything about mini-toroidal black holes?
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    i don't want them to feel neglected.
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    i wonder what happens if you try to penetrate a mini-toroid with a mini-hole a millionth of a second before the mini-toroid evaporates entirely.
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    The masculine impulse in me needs to find a way to, to, ahhh, uhhh, you know, penetrate.
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    Regular normal every day black holes can't quite put as much as 25% of their energy into their total mass/energy via spin. Lots of energy in the spin. But, as far as i know there is no known limit yet on the amount of energy that TOROIDS can store in spin. This is why cops are stronger than they look, they eat the things!
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    i'm pretty sure that i'm begging the question here. You can look it up. It's beggary.
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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  12. Jul 21, 2013 #11

    Chronos

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    Gold Member

    Your 'against the mainstream' ideas are shallow and wearing thin.
     
  13. Aug 15, 2013 #12
    Chronos my old friend it is you who swims 'gainst the main stream. The more refined question is this: "How close can two blacks holes get and still recede into infinity?" More people than myself it seems care about this issue.
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    http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/12_releases/press_060412.html
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    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/news/H-12-182.html
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    http://www.space.com/16031-supermassive-black-hole-ejected-host-galaxy.html
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    This quote: “Einstein’s equations are so complicated that we were able to solve them accurately only a few years ago for a relatively simple system of two black holes in a bound orbit,” said co-author Avi Loeb from the Harvard Center for Astrophysics. “Such a system forms naturally as a result of a merger between two galaxies, each hosting a single black hole at its center. The exact solution to Einstein’s equations, obtained with sophisticated computer algorithms, shows that the two black holes merge into a single black hole which is kicked in a preferred direction like a rocket due to the directional emission of gravitational waves which serve as the substance coming out from the rocket exhaust.”
    at: : http://www.universetoday.com/95628/are-rogue-black-holes-wandering-the-universe/#ixzz2bnLLuhe8
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    >>>>>SO! What i need to do is get the guys with the sophisticated algorithms to show me an extreme case of the littlest [ejected] black hole in the three-black-hole simulation. How close can it come to a bigger hole and still be ejected to infinity?
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    Great tunneling black holes! Sorta. This abstract is not strictly on topic but it's cute.
    http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.4458
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    Hope springs eternal in the Northstate...
    Except in your heart Chronos. If you don't like this thread perhaps you shouldn't participate.

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  14. Aug 16, 2013 #13

    Chronos

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    Gold Member

    Your references are all based on the same study about an alleged supermassive black hole 'kick'. How exactly do you define a 'mini-toroidal' black hole?
     
  15. Aug 16, 2013 #14
    The last article is about, NGC 1277 AND NGC 1275
    ---two galaxies in the Perseus cluster.
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    The first 4 articles are slightly different renditions regarding the CID-41 system,thought to include a quasar
    (also known as CXOC J100043.1+020637[4]) ---It is a different example in Sextans.
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    In answer to your question re a "mini-toroid," i would assume it would be about as small as a toroid could get and remain stable. i expect the rules for evaporation of toroidal might be different than for spherical holes. If i bump into Kip Thorne maybe i will remember to ask him. At any rate, a mini would definitely be smaller than "Family size."
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    But forget about that for a minute. You're the expert here on GR Chronos, at least relative to me: if gravity waves are dense enuf, can they form a black hole; and if so, will their contribution to BH charge be zero, since gravitons have zero charge; and what if any would be the resultant effect of the reputed spin 2 of gravitons on the nature of the BH? Could a BH formed solely by gravitons spin at all? i don't see why not.
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    The two distinct examples in the articles above assumed large black holes were ejected from their home galaxies, and both were explained as resulting from extremely dense gravity waves. In situations where billions of solar masses are involved, the gravity waves produced in mergers are big enough to sling large black holes out of their homes. i'd think that might add up to sufficient mass/energy for a BH, but getting it condensed enough looks less likely. What would it be like to be on a space station in the path of such intense gravity waves?
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    Mergers are interesting, but i'm also curious about near misses. Failures to merge followed by recession to infinity. If you spot any articles on or near the topic plz relate them.
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  16. Sep 25, 2013 #15
    ok Chronos, you are so smart. Type something. Something that someone else didn't say, and it's not about me.
    Go!
     
  17. Sep 25, 2013 #16

    Drakkith

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    Staff: Mentor

    What does this even mean?
     
  18. Sep 26, 2013 #17
    Black holes are kohl! i'd wager a penny that 99% of the patrons on this message bd agree with me.
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    i'm curious about what happens when black holes NEARLY collide. To find out, i ask. i search. And i found some stuff that looked interesting given my curiosity. And Mr. Chronos declares that i am shallow.
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    That's what it means.
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  19. Sep 26, 2013 #18

    Drakkith

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    Staff: Mentor

    You're asking about a black hole passing through a toroidal black hole? I'm not sure anyone here is going to be able to answer that.
     
  20. Sep 26, 2013 #19
    Thanks for your response Drakkith,
    perhaps you noticed above:
    "...Freidman's Topological Censorship theorem implies that a light ray cannot pass through the central toroidal hole before the topology becomes spherical. This seems to result from the non-trivial topology of the ring structure..."
    .
    i previously thought that this pretty much settled my question, since i had envisioned a smallish diameter BH trying to pass thru a largish diameter toroid. It seemed to me that a photon had a much better chance of penetrating the toroid than a black hole. But when i read that gravity waves were knocked out one side in collisions of supermassive black holes, it kind of re-opened my inquiry. Not to mention the idea of supper massive black holes themselves being knocked out of galaxies. So something DOES come out the other side in collisions, but just what kinds of stuff? Presumably, according to current fashion, gravitons are just virtual particles. But here they are, at least close to the event of collision, very densely inhabiting the space near the collision. Here i go again but i have to wonder if gravitons could be so dense that they could create a BH. Now THAT is a question i doubt anyone can answer with surety.
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    For me, the articles i mentioned were wow moments. If no one else shares my enthusiasm then that's nothing new.
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    Thx again for your time and attention. And i guess i'm sorry if i offended Mr. Chronos. Especially if he's not going to talk to me anymore. i'd rather be beaten than ignored, Chrony.
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    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  21. Sep 26, 2013 #20

    Drakkith

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    Staff: Mentor

    Please, there is no need for personal attacks on forum members, no matter what they may have said.

    Not sure. I'd expect you would need a phenomenal amount of energy carried by a gravitational wave with a minuscule wavelength. But since gravitational waves are in the metric itself, I don't know how that would work.
     
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