Adiabatic Process: Change Temp w/o Exchange of Heat

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of adiabatic processes, specifically how temperature can change without the exchange of heat with the surroundings. Participants explore theoretical and practical examples, questioning the conditions under which such processes occur and the mechanisms involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about how temperature can change without heat exchange, seeking examples to illustrate this phenomenon.
  • There is a suggestion that heat can be produced internally during a process, leading to temperature changes even in the absence of heat exchange with the environment.
  • Some argue that while heat exchange can be negligible with good insulation, a change in temperature typically implies some energy exchange with the surroundings.
  • Participants discuss rapid processes, such as explosions, that can be treated as adiabatic, raising questions about the source of heat in such scenarios.
  • Examples are proposed, such as the operation of a diesel engine and the heating of food in a microwave, where kinetic energy is increased without heat exchange.
  • One participant describes the two phases of a process involving gas compression and an exothermic reaction, highlighting how work done on the gas can change its temperature without external heat input.
  • There is a mention of the conservation of internal energy rather than heat, referencing historical experiments to illustrate the principles of adiabatic processes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the mechanisms of temperature change in adiabatic processes. While some agree on the role of work and internal energy, others question the implications of negligible heat exchange and the conditions under which these processes occur. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus on certain aspects.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of their examples and arguments, including the dependence on definitions of heat and work, and the specific conditions required for adiabatic processes to be accurately described.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and professionals in physics, engineering, and thermodynamics, particularly those exploring the principles of energy transfer and thermodynamic processes.

Kaushik
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TL;DR
How is to possible to change the temperature without exchange of heat?
How is to possible to change the temperature without exchange of heat?
Could you please give me an example?

I know it is possible to keep the temperature constant while there is exchange of heat. This is possible when the heat supplied is consumed/lost to the surrounding.

But how is it possible to prevent a system from exchanging heat with the surrounding even when when change in temperature is noticed?
 
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What if the heat is just produced in the process?

In practice there are no purely adiabatic processes. With good insulation and if the process is quick enough heat exchange can be negligible.
 
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Borek said:
What if the heat is just produced in the process?

In practice there are no purely adiabatic processes. With good insulation and if the process is quick enough heat exchange can be negligible.
So what you are saying is that the heat produced is still within the system? Only then we can consider there is no exchange of heat between the surrounding and the system.
But when there is change in temperature won't there be exchange of energy between the surrounding and the system? When temperature is changed, then to attain thermal equilibrium won't the energy be exchanged?
 
Kaushik said:
But when there is change in temperature won't there be exchange of energy between the surrounding and the system?

Please reread what I wrote, I addressed specifically this problem in my post.
 
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Borek said:
Please reread what I wrote, I addressed specifically this problem in my post.
So what you are saying is that there is heat exchange taking place but it can be negligible in the presence of good insulation. Isn't? But if the heat exchange is negligible then the change in temperature of the system should also be negligible right?
 
Kaushik said:
But if the heat exchange is negligible then the change in temperature of the system should also be negligible right?

Explosion is so fast it can be treated as adiabatic - yet the temperature goes up pretty fast. Think where is the source of heat.

That's not the only way of heating something without exchange of heat. For example: do you know how diesel engine works?
 
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Borek said:
Explosion is so fast it can be treated as adiabatic - yet the temperature goes up pretty fast. Think where is the source of heat.

That's not the only way of heating something without exchange of heat. For example: do you know how diesel engine works?
So we can increase the temperature of the system without exchange of heat by increasing the Kinetic energy of the molecules by some other means? Isn't?
I read the following examples:
  • The kinetic energy of the molecules can be increased by applying pressure due to which the temperature increases without exchange of heat. Is it?
  • In a microwave the food is heated by the help of electromagnetic with high frequency that increase the kinetic energy of the molecules and hence increasing the temperature.
Are these the examples where the body is heated without exchange of heat?
 
Borek said:
Think where is the source of heat.

That's not the only way of heating something without exchange of heat. For example: do you know how diesel engine works?
When I saw the working of the diesel engine, the input air is compressed due to which the temperature and the pressure increases. Then a suitable atomized chemical is brought in contact with the compressed air (high temperature). As soon as it comes in contact, it vaporizes and explodes. There is a rapid increase in temperature. Here, is the source of heat from the increase in kinetic energy (due to a sudden change in pressure) of the chemical that comes in contact with the hot compressed air?
 
Kaushik said:
Here, is the source of heat from the increase in kinetic energy (due to a sudden change in pressure) of the chemical that comes in contact with the hot compressed air?

There are two phases here.

In the first, gas is compressed - this is one way of changing the temperature without adding heat, by doing work on the gas.

In the second there is an exothermic chemical reaction - no heat added from the outside, but reaction produces heat, so the gas heats itself.

Kaushik said:
I read the following examples:
  • The kinetic energy of the molecules can be increased by applying pressure due to which the temperature increases without exchange of heat. Is it?
  • In a microwave the food is heated by the help of electromagnetic with high frequency that increase the kinetic energy of the molecules and hence increasing the temperature.
Are these the examples where the body is heated without exchange of heat?

Yes, these are perfectly valid, but I would start the list with the probably most common process, the one involving release of the chemical energy.
 
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Borek said:
In the first, gas is compressed - this is one way of changing the temperature without adding heat, by doing work on the gas.

In the second there is an exothermic chemical reaction - no heat added from the outside, but reaction produces heat, so the gas heats itself.
Oh ok! So this is how there is change in temperature without exchange of heat between the surrounding and the system in Adiabatic processes.
The change in kinetic energy of the molecules can be caused by doing work on the molecules. I have read that there are two mode of energy transfer. One being through heat and the other through work. Is it?
 
  • #11
Kaushik said:
Oh ok! So this is how there is change in temperature without exchange of heat between the surrounding and the system in Adiabatic processes.
The change in kinetic energy of the molecules can be caused by doing work on the molecules. I have read that there are two mode of energy transfer. One being through heat and the other through work. Is it?
Yes. That's correct. Haven't you ever pumped up a bike tire, and felt the tire become hot? You are doing work to compress the gas, and this work is translated directly into an increase in internal energy of the gas. There is no heat transfer required.
 
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  • #12
Today we don't think of heat as something which is conserved. Hence it makes no sense to speak of the heat content of a body. What is conserved is internal energy.
Whether in a process heat is flowing over the boundary or not also depends on the choice of the boundary.

The paradigmatic process where temperature changes although there is no heat flow over the boundary is the canon drilling experiment of Lord Rumford. He could show that mechanical energy can give rise to temperature increase of the canons (approximately adiabatic).
 
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