Aerodynamic drag on a car and recovering some of that energy using a fan

  • Context: Automotive 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Andrea Vironda
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Car Drag Energy Fan
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of aerodynamic drag on vehicles, specifically the potential for recovering energy from this drag using a fan or turbine system. Participants explore the feasibility, efficiency, and practicality of such systems in the context of automotive design and energy consumption.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants estimate that a car traveling at 130-140 km/h could dissipate 5-10 kW of energy due to aerodynamic drag.
  • Others argue that adding a fan or turbine to recover energy would increase drag resistance, resulting in a net loss of energy since the energy gained would be less than the energy required to overcome the additional drag.
  • One participant suggests that for battery-powered cars, it would be more efficient to draw power directly from the battery rather than using a turbine that would increase drag and introduce inefficiencies.
  • There is mention of ram-air intake systems as a potential exception, where compression can be achieved without a compressor, though this still incurs some drag.
  • Another participant questions the practicality of such systems, noting that vehicles rarely travel at high speeds for extended periods, suggesting that the added weight and complexity may not be justified.
  • One participant emphasizes that if it were feasible to eliminate aerodynamic drag entirely, car designers would have already done so, reiterating that adding a turbine would inherently increase drag beyond the energy it could produce.
  • Several references to literature on vehicle aerodynamics are provided for further reading, indicating a technical depth to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the feasibility and efficiency of recovering energy from aerodynamic drag, with no consensus reached on the practicality of implementing such systems in vehicles.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexities involved in energy recovery systems, including the trade-offs between added weight, complexity, and potential energy savings. The discussion also highlights the dependence on specific driving conditions and vehicle types.

Andrea Vironda
Messages
69
Reaction score
3
I think that driving at 130-140 km/h a car could dissipate 5-10 kW of energy only because of aerodynamic drag.
Why cars don't have a fan somewhere to exploit the aerodynamic drag?

For example a Pelton turbine
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
Because that fan will increase the drag resistance to the forward movement of the car, generating less energy in return than the amount absorbed.
We have to burn fuel to maintain a forward force that overcomes the resistive force of drag, which increases with the square of the relative speed between car and air steam.

During the times the car is desired to slowdown from high speeds, yes, anything that recovers energy, like some regenerative brakes of electric cars, would save fuel.
Nevertheless, the gain is always in competition with the cost and extra weight of any recovering system.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: russ_watters and jrmichler
The 5-10 kW of energy comes from the power source of the vehicle ... plus the inefficiencies of the powertrain. So assuming you have battery-powered car, it would be more efficient to plug your load directly on the battery, rather than:
  1. putting a turbine in front of the car to power that load (that would increase the drag power proportionally to its power output + inefficiencies);
  2. that extra power would be delivered by the powertrain (+ inefficiencies);
  3. ... to finally have the power coming from the battery anyway!
One exception is the use of ram-air intake systems. The reason is that you can achieve a compression without the use of a compressor. You still have an increase in drag, but you save on weight, complexity and cost. There is probably no efficiency gain by using the most efficient compressor you can find either.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: russ_watters and Lnewqban
Andrea Vironda said:
I think that driving at 130-140 km/h a car could dissipate 5-10 kW of energy only because of aerodynamic drag.
Even if it could work, what percentage of the time does a vehicle travel at or over 130 km/h ? Is it worth carrying weight and complexity when it is used for so little time? You have plenty of time to think about that next time you are driving up a hill, or sitting in a traffic jam.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban
What @Lnewqban and @jack action said, but in my words: If car designers could eliminate aerodynamic drag, they would. Adding a turbine to extract energy from the airstream only adds drag. And it adds more drag than the energy produced by the turbine. There is no way around this.

It is possible, however, to reduce the drag of a motor vehicle. Since the OP is interested, and has a master's degree in mechanical engineering, I suggest the following reading:

1) Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles, by Wolf-Heinrich Hucho.
2) Fluid-Dynamic Drag, by Sighard F. Hoerner.
3) Modifying the Aerodynamics of Your Road Car, by Julian Edgar.

The first two are well known classics, the third is recommended as being very good. A course in fluid dynamics is highly recommended to get the most out of the first two references, while a high school education should be enough for the third. Disclaimer: the Julian Edgar book has a couple pages about modifications to my truck.
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban and berkeman

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
16K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 82 ·
3
Replies
82
Views
29K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
4K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
47K