Aerodynamics: flow separation's effect on lift and drag

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the effects of flow separation on lift and drag in aerodynamics, exploring how these forces interact under various conditions. Participants examine theoretical aspects, practical implications, and specific scenarios related to wing performance in steady and unsteady flow fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that flow separation reduces both lift and drag simultaneously, prompting others to clarify that this may only apply to induced drag.
  • Another participant explains that flow separation creates turbulent eddies and low-pressure regions, which increase drag and reduce lift due to a diminished pressure difference.
  • A later reply challenges the initial claim, stating that while lift decreases after flow separation, total drag actually increases, especially under abnormal angle of attack conditions.
  • Participants discuss the implications of pressure gradients and the effects of flow separation on aerodynamic efficiency, noting that adverse pressure gradients can lead to earlier separation and stall conditions.
  • One participant introduces the idea that in certain cases, such as with highly-swept wings or oscillating wing features, flow separation can lead to reattachment and potentially increased lift, referencing specific aerodynamic designs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the relationship between flow separation, lift, and drag, with multiple competing views presented regarding the effects of flow separation under different conditions.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include assumptions about wing geometry and flow conditions, as well as the complexity of interactions between lift and drag that remain unresolved in the discussion.

Vasco Mena de Olivei
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
In aerodynamics, how does flow separation reduces the lift and drag of a wing at the same time?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Because most of the drag is 'induced drag' which is drag due to lift generation. Less lift thus means less drag.
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban and berkeman
When flow is separated, it creates turbulent eddies and regions of low pressure behind the separation point. These phenomena increase the drag force acting on the object, making it harder for the object to move through the air efficiently. Due to loss of pressure, the pressure difference is reduced which causes reduction in lift.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban
Vasco Mena de Olivei said:
In aerodynamics, how does flow separation reduces the lift and drag of a wing at the same time?
Welcome, Vasco! :smile:

That statement seems not to be totally correct (unless you are referring to induced drag only).
After flow separation occurs, the lift force gets reduced, but the total drag increases.

Think of the drag force induced in both extreme cases:
1) A thin airfoil at zero angle of attack (no lift and minimum form drag).
2) Same thin airfoil positioned at 90° angle of attack (no lift and maximum form drag).

1711829243781.jpeg


For a wing in normal flying conditions, the main zone of low pressure is located over the top surface of it, not interfering much with the horizontal balance of forces (thrust versus induced and parasitic drags).

For a wing in abnormal AOA conditions, the main zone of low pressure is relocated from the upper zone towards the aft zone, now interfering with the horizontal balance of forces (increased pressure differential between leading edge-bottom surface of wing and trailing edge-top surface).

At the same time, more area is presented to the incoming airflow, which velocity momentarily tends to stagnation.

The rotational nature of the shear forces inside the tri-dimensional turbulent wake detached airflow consumes mechanical energy, which is stolen from the lift effect, if thrust from the engine remains constant.

Airfoil_stall_flow-1-e1665406077260.png


Copied from:
https://eaglepubs.erau.edu/introduc...cles/chapter/introduction-to-boundary-layers/

"Flow Separation on an Airfoil
Boundary layer separation from a body, such as an airfoil section, as shown in the schematic below, can have significant consequences, including a large increase in drag and a substantial loss of lift.
This outcome is because the rear part of an airfoil creates an adverse pressure gradient, which becomes increasingly adverse with an increasing angle of attack.
At low angles of attack, the boundary layer can withstand this gradient, reaching the airfoil’s trailing edge or separating just before that point. However, as the angle of attack increases, the more severe adverse pressure gradients cause the flow to separate at a shorter downstream distance, so the separation point moves forward.
Eventually, flow separation occurs near the leading edge, and under these conditions, the airfoil is said to be stalled.
The turbulence produced in the separated flow region and wake is also a source of unsteady aerodynamic loads and buffeting on the wing.
Indeed, a characteristic of stalling the wing of an aircraft during flight is the creation of unsteady aerodynamic loads and buffeting transmitted to the airframe, warning the pilot of an impending wing stall."

Airfoil_TEseparation.png



Airfoil_polar-1-1024x708.png


 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: aeroandy7, jrmichler and FactChecker
"Wing" in the original question is assumed to be unswept with unchanging geometry and in a steady flow field. Perfectly fine. For fun, I just wanted to add that there are cases where large-scale vortices from separated flow can reattach and result in increased lift. For example, flow over a highly-swept, small-radius (sharp) wing leading edge may separate and roll up into a so-called vortex sheet near the wing's upper surface at relatively low angle-of-attack. Kuchemann's The Aerodynamic Design of Aircraft touches on this in figure 3.5.

Another example is an oscillating wing feature such as a pop-up spoiler, other effector, or even the entire wing flapping at the appropriate Strouhal number has been found to potentially lead to reattachment and enhanced lift. I'm sure some micro-UAV developers may have developed this considerably, mimicking nature, but unfortunately have no specific example to offer.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban and berkeman

Similar threads

  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
5K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K