Airplane Landing Questions -- How can the pilot see the ground?

[FactChecker]

Any airplane mishap is investigated like crazy. It's not like with car accidents, where they only pay attention after dozens or hundreds of crashes. Any crash will be investigated thoroughly for months or years if necessary. The only reason that is practical is that there are so few accidents.

 

[Klystron]

I disagree. Even in modern fighters, there are modes in the flight control that are called "autopilot modes".

Yes. My intended point was that autopilot functions can be modeled by distributed systems; modes of operation across a flight control grid connecting cluster . Not as a monolithic "on/off" device.

 

[jrmichler]

Air pressure can exert a huge force -

Stick your hand out the window of a car. Drive into a headwind at highway speed. Note the pressure when your hand is aligned with the airflow, and when your hand is perpendicular to the airflow. Compare the area of your hand to the area of a wing. Consider that aerodynamic forces are proportional to the square of the airspeed. Consider that your hand is not an airfoil.

Go to your nearest airport and pay for an introductory flying lesson. If it's in a single engine Cessna, ask for permission to open the window and stick your hand out. Single engine Cessna airplanes are allowed to fly with a window open, although it does get noisy.

 

[jim hardy]

What formulas relate them.

Force = Pressure X Area
Look up "Wing Loading"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_loading

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1880/1
shuttle is about 120 pounds per square foot
not too different from a modern airliner

http://www2.gvsu.edu/ramseyea/B17.html
WW2 B17 bomber about 60,000 pounds / 1420 sq ft = ~42 pounds per square foot

little private airplanes around 15 pounds per sq ft

monarch butterfly about 1/30th pound per square foot

 

[CWatters]

Jump to 50 seconds of this video



You can see cracks forming in the fuselage (why does the crack formed and how often does it happen?) and the plane breaking apart in midair, so the passengers just fall down from the sky. If one wears a parachute, perhaps one can survive the fall?

It exploded at 35,000 feet and about 25 miles from nearest land. Even if you survived the explosion you would also have needed ..

Previous lessons in how to free fall.
An oxygen system.
A boat.
A waterproof GPS.
A waterproof satellite phone.
Or an emergency locator beacon.

 

[jim hardy]

That China plane suffered a tail strike , that's where the tail drags the ground from a bad landing or takeoff.

PPRuNE talked about a 68 inch crack in underside of tail that was just patched over , might have failed depressurizing part of the plane and blew out a bulkhead.
I think that's what the official report concluded .
But i haven't read that report, just the thread at PPRuNE which is unofficial yet educational

 

[seazal]

I'm starting to wonder if you are really serious here or are just messing with us - pretending to be panicky and irrational. Surely you know the Space Shuttle flies into space over a cluster of rocket engines, not from aerodynamic lift, right?

This thread needs to become more serious, rapidly, or it will be closed.

I was talking about the Space Shuttle landing, not take off. Remember it lands like an airplane and takes off like a rocket.

I'm serious because whenever I fly 2 hours short trips I always give reminders to family of important matters like codes to the safe, etc. just in case. And next year I plan to take longer flight (maybe 10 hours) to Europe I hadn't tried before. So just want to gain more knowledge of it (it is said that to treat phobia, you need to face the fear or study it more).

An airplane depends on continuous thrust or it could stall and fall down, whereas all other vehicles like cars or boats can be stop anytime and you are safely at ground.

I'm now convinced parachute is not needed because of difficulty of deployment. So just need to trust the best airliner. There is now this Airbus 380-800 model which has two levels. It needs much more thrust and jet engine, so the question now is.. is it better to fly using smaller airplane that requires smaller or fewer jet engine or bigger airliner with jumbo jet engines. Which do you prefer guys?

 

[FactChecker]

An airplane depends on continuous thrust or it could stall and fall down,

If it lost total power, it would start gliding. It has a lot of time to get power again (except right at takeoff). Most commercial airplanes have several engines and can fly with fewer. The danger occurrences are few and far between. In fact, they are so rare that there will often be a TV show about any airplane crash like you are talking about. (Private airplanes are a different story. Those people are sometimes careless.)

 

[seazal]

If it lost total power, it would start gliding. It has a lot of time to get power again (except right at takeoff). Most commercial airplanes have several engines and can fly with fewer. The danger occurrences are few and far between. In fact, they are so rare that there will often be a TV show about any airplane crash like you are talking about. (Private airplanes are a different story. Those people are sometimes careless.)

If the power won't come back. What model of airliners can actually glide all the way to ground? I watched this at movie once. This would be the safest?

I often ride budget airliner with only 1 engine at either side. So 2 engines at either side is better? What is the safest airliner model with many redundancies?

 

[Klystron]

The airlines select aircraft to fly routes based on many factors -- expected number of passengers, expected cargo, amount of fuel required to fulfill the route, available craft at origin airport, etc. One can choose which airline to book even select which flight to book based on the expected airframe but ultimately route fulfillment lies with the airline.

Suggestions:

1. Install a decent flight simulator on a computer. (select software based on your platform +cost).
2. Take public tours of flight related operations including air shows, air fields, air traffic control centers, open houses; most free.
3. Visit air & space museums. Engage the docents.

 

[FactChecker]

If the power won't come back. What model of airliners can actually glide all the way to ground?

They can all glide all the way to the ground (or water) Hahahaha! I crack myself up.

I often ride budget airliner with only 1 engine at either side. So 2 engines at either side is better?

One engine is all they need. Remember that they only need enough power to push it from a shallow glide to level flight. Turns would need to be slow and wide.

What is the safest airliner model with many redundancies?

Certainly, more engines improve safety, but two engines would improve safety so much that having more is not that much better.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm serious...

Then you need to start being serious. You are saying way too much that is factually wrong or irrational. Being scared is fairly normal, but you're not in a plane, you're sitting behind a computer. You have time to think and not be scared.

I was talking about the Space Shuttle landing, not take off. Remember it lands like an airplane and takes off like a rocket...

An airplane depends on continuous thrust or it could stall and fall down...

1. The space shuttle's landing weight is 230,000 lb, not 3.3 million lb. That's closer to its takeoff weight.
2. The space shuttle lands without power; it glides.

I'm serious because whenever I fly 2 hours short trips I always give reminders to family of important matters like codes to the safe, etc. just in case.

If this fear is something that is causing you real problems, you should see a psychologist about it. All we can do here is correct your false beliefs of facts.

An airplane depends on continuous thrust or it could stall and fall down...

Technically, stalling can happen with or without thrust, but in either case, all airplanes carry spare engines so they can fly just fine if one fails.

It needs much more thrust and jet engine, so the question now is.. is it better to fly using smaller airplane that requires smaller or fewer jet engine or bigger airliner with jumbo jet engines. Which do you prefer guys?

Theoretically a plane with more engines should be safer in case of engine failure since it carries more extra engines, but from a practical standpoint airplanes are so safe I don't think that's been proven.

 

[seazal]

The airlines select aircraft to fly routes based on many factors -- expected number of passengers, expected cargo, amount of fuel required to fulfill the route, available craft at origin airport, etc. One can choose which airline to book even select which flight to book based on the expected airframe but ultimately route fulfillment lies with the airline.

Suggestions:

1. Install a decent flight simulator on a computer and learn to fly and land the sim properly (select software based on your platform +cost).
2. Take public tours of flight related operations including air shows, air fields, air traffic control centers, NASA installations; most free.
3. Visit air & space museums. Engage the docents.

What is the best flight simulator PC software available now that is accurate and doesn't require you to spend months learning the flight manual? Just want to have a feel of landing and the software should be accurate, not just for gaming.

 

[russ_watters]

What is the best flight simulator PC software available now that is accurate and doesn't require you to spend months learning the flight manual? Just want to have a feel of landing and the software should be accurate, not just for gaming.

https://www.x-plane.com/

I believe you can install and use a working trial version of it...for 15 minutes of flight at a time.

 

[FactChecker]

More knowledge is good, but there is a limit to the benefit. A serious fear of flying is like other phobias -- logic doesn't help a lot. I have a fear of spiders and will have to live with it forever. You may just have to resign yourself to accepting the dangers that everyone else does.

 

[seazal]

They can all glide all the way to the ground (or water) Hahahaha! I crack myself up.

Hey. I just read the space shuttle can land by gliding only, can't a commercial plane do that too? I read

"As others mentioned, it was originally planned to possibly add small jet engines for use in assuring the landing, but after it was demonstrated that a good, trained pilot could consistently (with the on-board guidance computers help) bring it in for a glider-only approach in reasonable conditions, it was decided to not add the considerable weight of jet engines and their added systems, since every single extra pound of weight costs tens of thousands of dollars in added fuel requirements. The pilots practiced over and over and over (literally hundreds of landings if I recall) in specially modified Learjets (that simulated the rather unusually heavy and laggy aerodynamics of orbiters) until they could hit the landing every time.

In the end, seems to have worked…every shuttle orbiter (besides Columbia of course) has landed without any major hitch. If course, if they had been absurdly off course, they always had the option of bailing out with parachutes and ditching the craft.

The OMS engines were probably far too rough-tuned to use for landing, as pilots need to make very small and precise engine adjustments, but that's a guess."

One engine is all they need. Remember that they only need enough power to push it from a shallow glide to level flight. Turns would need to be slow and wide.Certainly, more engines improve safety, but two engines would improve safety so much that having more is not that much better.

 

[seazal]

https://www.x-plane.com/

I believe you can install and use a working trial version of it...for 15 minutes of flight at a time.

When younger, I used the pc software MS flight simulator and F-15 Strike Eagle. I crashed the planes about a thousand times. So my other (learnt) concern is that if the airliner pilot is suicidal, he could easily crash the plane. So what kind of airliner has enough redundancies that any pilot can't just suddenly turn the engine off. Could you turn an airliner engine off by just removing a key, like in a car? or not?

By the way. Microsoft Flight Simulator is not better than X-plane?

 

[Klystron]

When younger, I used the pc software MS flight simulator and F-15 Strike Eagle. I crashed the planes about a thousand times. So my other (learnt) concern is that if the airliner pilot is suicidal, he could easily crash the plane. So what kind of airliner has enough redundancies that any pilot can't just suddenly turn the engine off. Could you turn an airliner engine off by just removing a key, like in a car? or not?

By the way. Microsoft Flight Simulator is not better than X-plane?

As you have flown both sims, compare them and apply your criteria to decide.

[I'm ignoring the 'car key' question since by now you can likely answer yourself.]

 

[russ_watters]

When younger, I used the pc software MS flight simulator and F-15 Strike Eagle. I crashed the planes about a thousand times.

I played both, and both are good. The F-15 simulator is pretty complicated for someone who doesn't know the basics though. If you try flying a Cessna, it is much easier than a jet (especially a fighter jet!). And this is where a "discovery flight" in a real plane would probably do you some good, as suggested earlier. You'll have an instructor take you up and then let you fly, and you'll see that the basics of keeping a plane flying are actually pretty easy.

So my other (learnt) concern is that if the airliner pilot is suicidal, he could easily crash the plane. So what kind of airliner has enough redundancies that any pilot can't just suddenly turn the engine off. Could you turn an airliner engine off by just removing a key, like in a car? or not?

Well sure, if a pilot wants to crash a plane, he can crash a plane. But that is obviously very rare.

By the way. Microsoft Flight Simulator is not better than X-plane?

MS Flight Simulator was discontinued 10 years ago. It may or may not have been discontinued due to the superiority of X-Pane at the time, but X-Plane at the time had the reputation of having better flight models.

 

[seazal]

I played both, and both are good. The F-15 simulator is pretty complicated for someone who doesn't know the basics though. If you try flying a Cessna, it is much easier than a jet (especially a fighter jet!). And this is where a "discovery flight" in a real plane would probably do you some good, as suggested earlier. You'll have an instructor take you up and then let you fly, and you'll see that the basics of keeping a plane flying are actually pretty easy.

Well sure, if a pilot wants to crash a plane, he can crash a plane. But that is obviously very rare.

MS Flight Simulator was discontinued 10 years ago. It may or may not have been discontinued due to the superiority of X-Pane at the time, but X-Plane at the time had the reputation of having better flight models.

I'm downloading X-Plane trial now.

When I was using MS flight simulator before, and studying the flight manual for months, I was thinking whether in a real life emergency when the pilots were down. One could land a real plane? Note very importantly that I'm not asking now about landing a plane normally by just learning it from PC. But only asking in an *emergency*. I watched the movie Turbulence once when the actress could land the plane when the pilots got killed. So if you master X-plane. You could do that on an emergency? I know this is very unlikely scenario. But just asking.

The next two years, there will be a shutdown of the LHC, so planning a trip for the first time that would take 10 hours or more. So just want to be prepared psychologically. I heard one can think more clearly in Switzerland and can focus more on stuff beyond the standard model there. Perhaps it's the mood and weather that gives one the focus? Note many physicists love mountain climbing, like Lisa Randall. So mountains and physics seem to jive together.

 

[FactChecker]

Hey. I just read the space shuttle can land by gliding only, can't a commercial plane do that too?

Yes, but it has to be high enough to be in range of a runway and be able to line up on the runway. (I am not considering any other type of landing, which have serious dangers.)

The main safety factor is having one engine running. That would allow a commercial airplane to fly to the nearest acceptable runway and land.

 

[seazal]

Yes, but it has to be high enough to be in range of a runway and be able to line up on the runway. (I am not considering any other type of landing, which have serious dangers.)

When gliding airplanes without any fuel left (this can be done with any airplane from propeller based to jet engined?), do you use normal landing angle? or do you put the nose down? How to initiate gliding and how is the airfoil dynamics since thrust is losing fast?

 

[CWatters]

I have flown in many aircraft types all over the world and have about 100 hours solo in gliders.

There are no simulators you can afford that will give you a realistic feeling of landing.

There are no aircraft (yet) that will prevent a determined pilot from deliberately crashing.

 

[FactChecker]

When gliding airplanes without any fuel left (this can be done with any airplane from propeller based to jet engined?), do you use normal landing angle? or do you put the nose down? How to initiate gliding and how is the airfoil dynamics since thrust is losing fast?

Technicalities. I don't know much about that. A pilot can answer that. I know that the control surfaces should work and that the pilot would set the angle of attack for the maximum range. When he reaches the runway and is lined up correctly, it would be fairly routine and practiced. But the main thing about gliding is that it gives time to restart engines.

 

[FactChecker]

Please watch before continuing. It will answer many of your fears.

 

[seazal]

Please watch before continuing. It will answer many of your fears.

What flight simulator software did the pilot use in landing without power?

By the way, note GPS can work inside airplane. I always use the software "Maps.me" in android cellphone or apple iphones to track my flight real time while on air. In the Malaysian Airliner which was lost. Had a passenger used the application, he could have learned the plane was flying way off course, and could get the attention of the attendants. If the suicidal pilot murdered the co-pilot, and the attendants and passengers could overpower him. And no one was left flying the plane, all the knowledge you gain in flight simulator may just save the day, isn't it? So I'll master the art of landing without power in X-Plane software I'm downloading now.

Look. For normal citizens. This would be crazy. But for us technical people who want to understand every Newtonian and Quantum Gravity thing, we need to get to the bottom of every details. That includes flying the airplane that would take you to LHC. Everytime I was on an airplane. I was so glad Newton was correct. And after landing, then focus on quantum gravity or the like and wonder whether Einstein or Dirac was totally correct and how to combine their theories.

 

[FactChecker]

What flight simulator software did the pilot use in landing without power?

That was a training simulator for professional pilots. It costs $millions. The cockpit, controls, handling, and behavior are all realistic enough to learn how to fly that particular plane in all kinds of situations.

 

[Tiran]

I'm a pilot. There is no real difference between gliding and powered flight. Both are a balance between thrust, lift, gravity and angle of attack. If you are going 500 knots and lose all power, you can maintain altitude by trading speed until you get close to stall, or you can maintain speed and lower the nose to use gravity to provide "thrust".

Most landings could be performed power off, but power allows you to fly the plane slower than it would want to glide at that sink rate. Those speeds are known as the "area of reverse command", where you are using more power than you would at either your max range or minimum power speeds.

You do not need to pull up the nose to land a plane - navy carrier landings take place at approach AOA. Flaring during landing is a feel thing, and trades off some velocity and descent rate for increased nose up without as much AOA problems because of ground effect.

Helicopters can also glide.

 

[seazal]

That was a training simulator for professional pilots. It costs $millions. The cockpit, controls, handling, and behavior are all realistic enough to learn how to fly that particular plane in all kinds of situations.

When I was using Microsoft Flight Simulator about 20 years ago. I had a very detail flight manual (like in real airplane). I also have the Thrust master flight control system for the F-15. I just tried the X-plane now. It uses mouse to control. I wonder if it has detail manual like in MS Flight Simulator way back and even special flight control system add-ons. I remember whenever the F-15 stalls, I need to direct the nose down to increase speed.

I guess I need to be familiar with these to gain the confidence for long distance trip abroad. My farthest trip is only 3 hours. Not 10 hours or more.

 

[jim hardy]

fear of flying ?
invest forty bucks and join Experimental Aircraft Association.
https://www.eaa.org/eaa
that's cheaper than an hour with a 'shrink" .
Find your local chapter and meet some homebuilders
you might get 'the bug'

VW engine and plywood homebuilt

http://www.evansair.com/

IMHO safer than an airliner because they stall around 40mph so if you keep it right side up you'll likely survive the impact
a friend of mine stalled his into a cornfield.
The farmer showed up with his tractor and pulled the plane out.
Minor wing damage

 

[Tiran]

IMHO safer than an airliner because they stall around 40mph so if you keep it right side up you'll likely survive the impact
a friend of mine stalled his into a cornfield.

But they are incredibly unsafe at 500mph.

 

[jim hardy]

But they are incredibly unsafe at 500mph.

yes,
getting it to someplace you could find the necessary 425 mph tailwind would be risky

 

[Tiran]

yes,
getting it to someplace you could find the necessary 425 mph tailwind would be risky

I was joking around, but I really don't think low approach speeds = safety. Low speeds means that crosswinds become a larger vector, requiring more flight control input and more attitude changes. Unless landing gear and runways aren't appropriate for higher landing speeds, those landing speeds are not a safety issue. Same thing with low stall speeds - it doesn't matter if you stall speed is 30 or 300 if you go under it.

The statistically safest planes are airliners by most any measure. One of the safest small aircraft is the Jet Ranger helicopter. A lot of that has to do with who is flying them.

 

[seazal]

This is an example of the smartphone maps.me application that can works with gps in any airborne airliner even without any cell signal.

https://maps.me/download/

It comes in android and apple version (ipad or iPhone). It can show you in real time your exact location. I used it to navigate any streets in the world.

Do you know of other apps that gives even more details than it?

Supposed you were in the missing Malaysia flight 370 and learned your plane was going off course to the Andamon sea and not Beijing. What would you do?

I know this is very rare occurrence and doesn't deserve to spend so much time learning to fly. One could spend the time learning physics instead.

That said. Is there a video that gives introductions to the basic cockpits instruments present in all airplanes? Like autopilot, radio, etc.?

Also does all airplane from Cessna to the giant Airbus Dreamliner have similar landing speed? what knots is it? Or does it vary by airplane?

 

[jim hardy]

I was joking around,

 

[Tiran]

Also does all airplane from Cessna to the giant Airbus Dreamliner have similar landing speed?

No. Slow planes generally have slow landing speeds, faster planes increasing fast landing speeds.

 

[seazal]

No. Slow planes generally have slow landing speeds, faster planes increasing fast landing speeds.

Let's say you are a pilot and you don't know the landing speed of an unknown plane you just woke up in the middle of (just for sake of discussion), and you tried to land the airplane, can you know the required landing speed based on any indicators whether from the instruments or flight behavior?

 

[Tiran]

Let's say you are a pilot and you don't know the landing speed of an unknown plane you just woke up in the middle of (just for sake of discussion), and you tried to land the airplane, can you know the required landing speed based on any indicators whether from the instruments or flight behavior?

The landing checklist card should have a chart that gives you speeds based on configuration (flaps), altitude, pressure and gross weight. When in doubt, use a larger number.

 

[seazal]

The landing checklist card should have a chart that gives you speeds based on configuration (flaps), altitude, pressure and gross weight. When in doubt, use a larger number.

What would happen if a plane lands too fast? Any videos. I know if it's too slow, it would stall.

 

[OCR]

...Airbus Boeing Dreamliner...

Boeing 787 Dreamliner ....

.

 

[Tiran]

What would happen if a plane lands too fast? Any videos. I know if it's too slow, it would stall.

Up to a point, nothing. Way too fast and you won't be able to stop the plane before you go off the end of the runway, but airfields are designed for even that. (Assuming the airfield is a reasonable match for the aircraft.)

 

[seazal]

Up to a point, nothing. Way too fast and you won't be able to stop the plane before you go off the end of the runway, but airfields are designed for even that. (Assuming the airfield is a reasonable match for the aircraft.)

For decades, I always wonder how the airplane can time it's descend and speed enough to land at the first meters of the runway. Is it done by any instruments or just estimated by pilots? For example, your runway is 15 miles away and you are at certain altitude. How do you descend such that you can time the landing gear to touch down at the start of the landing strip? It's something I wasn't able to learn in the MS flight simulator.

 

[OCR]

What would happen if a plane lands too fast? Any videos.

Yes, a few ...And... watch ALL of these....

Oh... and this one too.

.

 

[Tiran]

For decades, I always wonder how the airplane can time it's descend and speed enough to land at the first meters of the runway. Is it done by any instruments or just estimated by pilots? For example, your runway is 15 miles away and you are at certain altitude. How do you descend such that you can time the landing gear to touch down at the start of the landing strip? It's something I wasn't able to learn in the MS flight simulator.

There are all sorts of ways of estimating a starting point for descent, but really you are just aiming the plane at a spot and flying to it. If your descent angle matches your predicted landing spot, it won't change location much in the windscreen.

Conceptually, it is little different than learning archery on a bow with no sights.You learn to direct the action based on visual cues that are hard to describe concretely.

 

[FactChecker]

I strongly disagree with the idea that a Microsoft flight simulator will reduce your fear of flying. You are not a real pilot. Microsoft is not a real airplane (no real visual or "seat of the pants" feedback). You would probably be trying to fly situations that would not occur in a hundred years of riding in a commercial airplane.

I like to encourage you to learn more, but IMHO this is not the way to decrease fear of flying. I have seen fighter pilots in their first practice restarting engines in a simulator and all I can say is that it was terrifying (single-engine airplane).

 

[CWatters]

If you are rich you some places offer time in a real simulator...

http://www.realsimulation.co.uk/gift-experiences-vouchers/

 

[seazal]

There are all sorts of ways of estimating a starting point for descent, but really you are just aiming the plane at a spot and flying to it. If your descent angle matches your predicted landing spot, it won't change location much in the windscreen.

Conceptually, it is little different than learning archery on a bow with no sights.You learn to direct the action based on visual cues that are hard to describe concretely.

So if the descend is too fast and the runway is still off a mile away then the plane will start to level and then descend again? Or there is some kind of HUD (Head Up Display) in the windscreen that shows the runway that you must align?

 

[Tiran]

So if the descend is too fast and the runway is still off a mile away then the plane will start to level and then descend again? Or there is some kind of HUD (Head Up Display) in the windscreen that shows the runway that you must align?

No, you just learn that the landing area should be (let's say) 4 inches above the instrument panel when your airspeed and vertical speed indicator are in a proper ratio.

You are assuming this is very technical when it is not. Once you've done it ten times it is rather obvious whether you are headed to the right spot. But your questions are like me asking you how you parallel park a car without radar and a compass.

 

[russ_watters]

This is an example of the smartphone maps.me application that can works with gps in any airborne airliner even without any cell signal.

Do you know of other apps that gives even more details than it?

Any app that works on the ground will work aloft. I use Google Maps when riding in planes. The only caveat is the trade-off between area covered and resolution -- and the need for a data connection. If the plane doesn't have wifi, you'll need offline maps, which many apps support (google maps does).

Also does all airplane from Cessna to the giant Airbus Dreamliner have similar landing speed? what knots is it? Or does it vary by airplane?

A Cessna can't even fly as fast as an airliner lands. A Cessna lands at about 50kts and an airliner around 140.

 

[russ_watters]

So if the descend is too fast and the runway is still off a mile away then the plane will start to level and then descend again? Or there is some kind of HUD (Head Up Display) in the windscreen that shows the runway that you must align?

You asked this before and were told about ILS. Did you forget already? Did you not read the link provided? Again: effort.

...however as @Tiran says, all pilots first learn visual approaches, using little more than their airspeed indicator and altimeter and looking out the window. It isn't much different from lining up a car for a turn. You can see if the runway is moving up or down in your windshield and therefore if you are getting low or high.