News America you don't know what you've done.

[BoulderHead]

For some reason this reminds me of a song by Randy Newman.

Lyrics to "Political Science";

No one likes us
I don't know why.
We may not be perfect
But heaven knows we try.
But all around even our old friends put us down.
Let's drop the big one and see what happens.

We give them money
But are they grateful?
No they're spiteful
And they're hateful.
They don't respect us so let's surprise them;
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them.

Now Asia's crowded
And Europe's too old.
Africa's far too hot,
And Canada's too cold.
And South America stole our name.
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us.

Bridge:
We'll save Australia;
Don't want to hurt no kangaroo.
We'll build an all-American amusement park there;
They've got surfing, too.

Well, boom goes London,
And boom Paree.
More room for you
And more room for me.
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town.
Oh, how peaceful it'll be;
We'll set everybody free;
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby,
There'll be Italian shoes for me.
They all hate us anyhow,
So let's drop the big one now.
Let's drop the big one now.

 

[russ_watters]

But now its been polished and made up to be called by the euphemism "patriotism". Why the hell should I love some piece of land just because a certain set of my ancestors were born there ?...But its ridiculous to expect me to feel "love" for this piece of land and "hatred" for other pieces of land.

Siv, again, that's *NOT* patriotism, that's *NATIONALISM.* Patriotism has nothing to do with a chunk of land and it has nothing to do with hate. PLEASE look it up. This is a good start:

Patriotism is love for country and desire to defend and promote its well-being; Nationalism is the exaltation of one country OVER another.

http://weekly.china-forum.org/CCF96/ccf9650/ccf9650-4.html

There is zero objective evidence that the Iraqis wanted to kill you.

You mean besides chanting "death to america" and "kill the infidels," right?

 

[Zero]

Hmmmm...good points from everyone...keep it cool, ok?

 

[Siv]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Siv, again, that's *NOT* patriotism, that's *NATIONALISM.* Patriotism has nothing to do with a chunk of land and it has nothing to do with hate. PLEASE look it up. This is a good start:

Ok, this is funny

Lets take your definition apart piece by piece, shall we ??

" Patriotism is love for country and desire to defend and promote its well-being; Nationalism is the exaltation of one country OVER another. "

Loving your country, right ? What exactly are you loving here ? Not the piece of land, you say. So what exactly are you loving ? The people ? So when you say love your country, you mean love Americans ? Why specify that except to differentiate against other country people ? If you love all human beings, why do you have to specify the country bit ?
Ok now coming to the "defend and promote its well-being" bit. Defend from what ?? When you use the word "defend", it always means "defend against" another.
And "promote" is again a promoting over another. If people wanted all countries to do well, no one would talk about promoting one.

Patriotism and nationalism are fundamentally the same thing.
You cannot support one country in a vaccuum. You have to support it against others. Promote it over others, defend it against others. The "against" component is built in into patriotism.

- S.

 

[Siv]

Originally posted by Alias
We are at war with terrorists. The presumption that we think that Iraq is full of terrorists is absurd. Saddam's regime, on the other hand, is the very definition of 'terrorism'. If you can't see that, you might want to pay more attention.

The idea that this means that everything we do is designed to kill terrorists is simply ridiculous. While killing the ones that exist is fine by me, that doesn't solve the underlying problem. The underlying problem is that terrorists are born out of oppression. And this oppression comes, mostly, from their governments. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their governments.

Enough of assertions, Alias. Show me some objective evidence.

- S.

 

[Alias]

Originally posted by Siv
Enough of assertions, Alias. Show me some objective evidence.

- S.

Which of the following do you need more objective evidence of...

1. We are at war with terrorists.
2. The presumption that we think that Iraq is full of terrorists is absurd.
3. Saddam's regime... is the very definition of 'terrorism'.
4. The idea that this means that everything we do is designed to kill terrorists is simply ridiculous.
5. ... that(killing terrorists) doesn't solve the underlying problem.
6. The underlying problem is that terrorists are born out of oppression.
7. And this oppression(that terrorists are born out of) comes, mostly, from their governments.
8. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their(oppressive) governments.

This is just how I see the world. I could be wrong. Maybe my genetic tendency to rip the throats out of those that threaten my well being is clouding my view. I think I might need some gene therapy. I'm considering crossing myself with that gay microsoft butterfly.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Alias
8. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their(oppressive) governments.

The strange thing about is that they are
so used to it and so "unsmart" that some of them
actually seem to like being opressed, at least
while it happens. They are brainwashed and
convinced that their bad lives are the doing
of the evil non-muslims from other countries.
That is of course ridiculous... but it is the case.
Even amongst parts of the populatioin in countries
like Baharein and Cuwait. Not even mentioning
the other countries in the region where they
have a consensus over this.

Originally posted by Alias
This is just how I see the world. I could be wrong. Maybe my genetic tendency to rip the throats out of those that threaten my well being is clouding my view. I think I might need some gene therapy.

Nope, I think your genes are quite fine...

Live long and prosper.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by drag
some of them actually seem to like being opressed, at least
while it happens. They are brainwashed and convinced that their bad lives are the doing of the evil non-muslims from other countries.
That is of course ridiculous... but it is the case.

Drag, I refuse to accept that starving people would actually enjoy starvation and the families of murdered dissidents enjoy the deaths of their family members. Certainly they may be so brainwashed they don't know where the oppression is coming from, but I can't believe they don't think they are being oppressed.

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Drag, I refuse to accept that starving people would actually enjoy starvation and the families of murdered dissidents enjoy the deaths of their family members. Certainly they may be so brainwashed they don't know where the oppression is coming from, but I can't believe they don't think they are being oppressed.

It could easily be something like Stockholm syndrome on a massive scale. For the last 12 years, all food and all medicine came from Saddam Hussein for many people. While he is also the source of cruelty, even that works in his favor. Every day that he does not kill someone is another day that he has given them life.

Njorl

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Njorl
It could easily be something like Stockholm syndrome on a massive scale...Every day that he does not kill someone is another day that he has given them life.

Njorl

I'll certainly grant you that, but with one caveat - he DOES kill dissidents and innocent civilians on a daily basis. Not a lot of time for Stockholm syndrome to take hold. Stockholm syndrome depends on the kidnapper NOT harming you.

 

[damgo]

I thought that "they really all want to be like us, but just don't quite know it yet" attitude had died out... guess not. Nobody likes being oppressed, pretty much by definition.

Pretty much everyone in Iraq hates Saddam: he truly is brutal, and there are coup attempts all the time. The Republican Guard is used to keep the army in line, but Saddam doesn't even trust them enough to let them inside Baghdad! (until the invasion started, at least) And that's his army.

Problem is, many Iraqis see this not a liberation, but as an attack on Iraq... "Saddam may not be popular in Iraq, but he's running against George Bush."

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/1048770098290210.xml
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0402-01.htm

 

[drag]

Hmm...
I guess the "like being opressed" part didn't
quite come out the way I meant it and it wasn't
aimed at Iraq in particular, such violent rule
fits that a lot less than other countries in
the region. I appologize for being unclear.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Alias]

Originally posted by damgo
I thought that "they really all want to be like us, but just don't quite know it yet" attitude had died out... guess not.

They want to be exactly like us, in that all they really want to do is go to work so they can provide for their families without having a boot on their neck.

Problem is, many Iraqis see this not a liberation, but as an attack on Iraq... "Saddam may not be popular in Iraq, but he's running against George Bush."

That is supposition. The interviews with civilians that are beginning to come out of Iraq point to the opposite of your statement.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/1048770098290210.xml[/quote]
I should have known even before I clicked. The word 'Oregon' in the URL should have tipped me off. That sad retired general is spewing the same tired liberal non-arguments that have been coming out of Hollywood. "What about North Korea? They already have nuclear weapons!" they shriek.

This is real simple to understand. Let me use an analogy...

This dog has rabies. That dog doesn't but is about to eat some rabies infected meat. What do you do?

If that's too hard to figure out, I suggest you retreat, regroup, and try again, because you just aren't ready for prime-time.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0402-01.htm[/QUOTE]
I simply can not believe that someone would willingly read the same tired argument, and believe that it had merit, after all that has gone on.

 

[damgo]

That is supposition. The interviews with civilians that are beginning to come out of Iraq point to the opposite of your statement.

Yeah, it is. I've been trying to read as much as I can and get a picture of the sentiment in Iraq through all the spin, but it's hard. It seems like most Iraqis hate Saddam, don't like being invaded and attacked, but would be willing to put up with a lot to get rid of Saddam, and won't be terribly angry at the USA IF we get them food and aid quickly, set up a good government, and then get the hell out. It doesn't seem like there's much faith in this last though.

I know that argument is invalid, but there's a difference between thinking that dealing with NK is more urgent/important than dealing with Iraq, and the usual "oh yeah, well what about NK?" you just shot down. :)

IMO McPeak is a bright guy... lot of good stuff in that article. And he's certainly not a liberal! He broke tradition to campaign for Bush in the last election.

 

[Alias]

You're right. If we don't get out of there fast, all this moralizing could be for nothing. People will see US as same old same old.

 

[Zero]

Alias, teh only real difference between you and me is your optimism and trust in the Bush administration. You very often agree that what I think is going to happen is not good...you simply choose to believe that the bad things won't happen.

 

[Alias]

Frightening isn't it?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Alias
Frightening isn't it?

Yeah...if you would get rid of about 50% of your hostility towards us dissenters, your points would come across 100% better.

 

[Nicool003]

I have to say that if that is the only difference that is scary.