- #61
kyleb
well no one suggested that this would insight Germans to become terrorists anyway russ.
Last edited by a moderator:
News America you don't know what you've done.
- Thread starter Laser Eyes
- Start date
Click For Summary
The discussion centers on the escalating anti-American sentiment in the Arab world, predicting a rise in terrorism against the US. Participants express concern that the US's actions could lead to unprecedented levels of violence and loss of life. There is a debate on the effectiveness of military action versus diplomatic solutions, with some arguing that killing terrorists only perpetuates the cycle of violence. The conversation also touches on the complexities of addressing terrorism and the consequences of US foreign policy. Ultimately, the thread highlights the urgent need for a balanced approach combining military action with diplomacy to prevent further conflict.
- #62
LURCH
Science Advisor
- 2,549
- 119
But it has been suggested that this is what causes middle eastern muslims to become terrorists. What Russ seems to be saying is that these social differences must not be the true cause because if they were, they would insiight Germans (or the French, or whomever had these same grievances).
- #63
kyleb
well we are just having disagreements with the Germans at the moment, it is not like we have been oppressing them almost constantly for nearly a millennium.
- #64
Njorl
Science Advisor
- 284
- 22
I think that one reason terrorism sprouts in the Arab and Muslim world is that there is no other vent for dissatisfaction. There is no political freedom. About the only two things one is free to express are one's faith, and anti-Westernism. Dissatisfaction with your government is not healthy to express.
Njorl
Njorl
- #65
drag
Science Advisor
- 1,097
- 1
Indeed. You have a point there Njorl.
Live long and prosper.
- #66
kat
- 42
- 0
Ah com'on guys..this is true in part...but who would they focus on if they weren't encouraged by their media and schoolbooks to hate the evil U.S. and those blood sucking jews? Ooops, could it be they'd lash out at their own (put numerous appropriate adjectives here) rulers?
What is the value of creating an enemy for your restless and dissatisfied subjects to focus their anger on? priceless?
- #67
kyleb
well i think it is worthless, i just wish i could convince people like you of that.
- #68
kat
- 42
- 0
Originally posted by kyleb
well i think it is worthless, i just wish i could convince people like you of that.
Well, give up..you'll never convince people like me..that is if you even have the insight to grasp what type of people I am.
It's certainly not worthless ..in fact I dare say it's rather costly, probably in more ways then your limited self hating american type persona allows for..but it is indeed worth something and those that profit hugely by creating hatred aren't just the pastie faced anglo saxon's sitting on the front stoop of corporate america that you and your tunnel vision are entirely consumed with.
- #69
kyleb
you must be talking to someone other than me considering i don't have a "self hating" issue, or tunnel vision for that matter.
- #70
LURCH
Science Advisor
- 2,549
- 119
And we have been constantly oppressing the Arabs? How did we oppress them back before this country existed ("nearly a millenium")?
- #71
kyleb
well that would be our European ancestors i am referring to there.
- #72
drag
Science Advisor
- 1,097
- 1
Greetings !
Indeed.
(And, no offense, but you don't exactly need a
phsycology PhD to figure that out kyleb...
)
Live long and prosper.
Indeed.
Originally posted by kyleb
well i think it is worthless, i just wish i could convince people like you of that.
Indeed.
(And, no offense, but you don't exactly need a
phsycology PhD to figure that out kyleb...
)Live long and prosper.
- #73
Nicool003
I know this is way off topic but drag I notice that in your last few post you seem to be favoring the word "indeed"
Indeed
Indeed
- #74
Nicool003
sorry to bring this up again but I was horrified when I saw this
They aren't similar Kyle! How can you evem SAY that?? Religions= peaceful group of people that believe in a common thing. Gangs= group of crap heads that do drugs and other illegal things. HOW CAN YOU EVEN COMPARE THEM?
They aren't similar Kyle! How can you evem SAY that?? Religions= peaceful group of people that believe in a common thing. Gangs= group of crap heads that do drugs and other illegal things. HOW CAN YOU EVEN COMPARE THEM?
- #75
kyleb
argh Nicool003, i don't think you would understand no matter how much effort i put into anwsering your question.
- #76
russ_watters
Mentor
- 23,739
- 11,188
Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at.
Kyle, that just doesn't fit. Clearly the hatred coming from the middle east is focused on the US and Israel. And its only the past 50 years.
- #77
kyleb
oh come on, that is the current hot topic; but even if you do want to forget history, there still are many people who do not.
- #78
Siv
Gold Member
- 89
- 5
And that's how all the bloody wars in history have been justified. They're evil. They're not like us. They're so bad. We're so good. Kill them.
Unfortunately, the same lines can be used for the other party too. To incite them to kill you.
Us vs. them. Our innate xenophobia and ethnocentrism. Human nature.
Earlier it was to one of the wandering tribes of hunter-gatherers that you pledged allegiance to. Now its a piece of land in which you (or your ancestors) happened to be born in. " My country, right or wrong ".
Or rather ... " This piece of land with artificial borders, in which my ancestors happened to be born in. I am prepared to die for this piece of land and kill all those who happened to have ancestors born in other pieces of land bordered by other artificial boundaries. "
Patriotism is as dangerous a religion as Islam or Christianity. Because, like them, it is also based on nothing real. An outcome of our cavemen environments. Our brains are still very much in the stone age.
The US government has always been particularly successfull at doing this. They sell patriotism like soaps and shampoo. And the people (some of them, at least) lap it up. No wonder, because it appeals to their natures. Its nice to think of the world as being delineated into clear blacks and whites. Like in the movies. The good men and the bad men. The good men always end up killing the bad and what better justification for that than the "fact" that they're bad - oh, so bad, completely evil. Evil Commies. Evil Saddam. Good Americans.
Black and white.
I wish life and human nature were that simple.
- S.
- #79
russ_watters
Mentor
- 23,739
- 11,188
Siv, you are close but you have one major error in your operating premise:
Your definition of patriotism is incorrect. Patriotism is simply love of your country. It is not blind and it is not exclusionary. What you are describing is NATIONALISM and though similar to patriotism, it is essentially a dead concept in the western world. The death of nationalism is the reason the western world isn't fighting internally anymore. Certainly some of the elements of nationalism such as xenophobia and ethnocentrism still exist, but to a much more limited extent than say in 1938.
Last edited:
- #80
Alias
You forgot the part about how they want to kill us.
I wish that we could separate the world into two groups. One group could be the group that wants to kill everyone and everything related to western culture. The other group would be the "I'm cool, if you're cool" group. Then we could begin to kill the people in the "We want to kill the west" group, one at a time, giving each one of them a chance to abondon their hate.
What you fail to understand is that as long as nobody bugs me while I'm eating, I'm easy to get along with. Live and let live. Do your own thing, man. You know what I mean?
911 taught me that there are some out there that have no regard for my life, PERSONALLY, and that they would like to kill me even though they don't know me. As far as I know, I was in the trailer park that day working on my truck. I didn't oppress anyone. I didn't murder anyone. I didn't force my ideology down anyones throat. What the fucck did I do to these people? NOTHING! Yet they want to kill me.
So my response is... Kill them first. Kill their friends, kill their families. Kill anyone with similar ideas. Sure there's lots of people on the list, but we just got started. There's plenty of time to abandon hate. I hope they get the message before it's too late.
All I wanted to do was drink a couple of beers and work on my truck. Now I have to start killing people. How do you think that makes me feel?
- #81
Nicool003
What do you mean? Oh wait nevermind now I get it. Your racist or something. Or maybe you realized your wrong! Yes that must be it.
- #82
kyleb
nope, that's two srikes for you.
- #83
drag
Science Advisor
- 1,097
- 1
Indeed.
- #84
russ_watters
Mentor
- 23,739
- 11,188
Yeah, that's kinda a deal breaker for me too, Alias. Until they acknowledge that I have a right to exist, there should be no negotiations.
- #85
Alias
If they had asked us for help solving their problems, rather than trying to kill us, things might be different.
It could be that due to their oppression, they are unaware of the mechanisms behind their oppression.
I think that a reasonable response, as a Superpower democracy, might be to send out a message to these oppressive regimes something like this...
"Stop treating your people like SH1T, or we're going to kick your ass."
That should be clear enough. But will it be effective?
It could be that due to their oppression, they are unaware of the mechanisms behind their oppression.
I think that a reasonable response, as a Superpower democracy, might be to send out a message to these oppressive regimes something like this...
"Stop treating your people like SH1T, or we're going to kick your ass."
That should be clear enough. But will it be effective?
- #86
drag
Science Advisor
- 1,097
- 1
After this campaign, I think the chances are growing...
- #87
DrChinese
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Gold Member
- 8,498
- 2,129
Many liberals do not think anything needs to done to contain Saddam over and above what was already in place before we invaded. That is a specific alternative, and much of the rest of the world agree with the "liberals". Oh, and being against the war does not exactly make someone a liberal.
- #88
Siv
Gold Member
- 89
- 5
Human nature has not changed, Russ. It takes tens of thousands of years to do so ... and this new environment (democracy, fundamental rights etc ..) is but a few centuries old.
The us vs. them is still very much there. But now its been polished and made up to be called by the euphemism "patriotism". Why the hell should I love some piece of land just because a certain set of my ancestors were born there ? ITs ridiculous ??
I pay taxes and agree to certain legal rules to live there and enjoy whatever infrastructure the government provides me with. Thats all. What else is needed ??
If we go further back in time, we all originated from the same place in Africa. Then we spread out from there.
If you go further back, maybe the first mammals originated from another place, the first vertebrates from some other place ... and the first life (the arbitrary dividing line again) in yet another place. Which is our country ?? Does it even make sense to call any piece of land that ??
Why should I pledge allegiance to India or Canada or UK ? I live in India and pay taxes and follow the legal laws here. But its ridiculous to expect me to feel "love" for this piece of land and "hatred" for other pieces of land. IT makes absolutely no sense. A Canadian lady is no different from me except in superficial stuff like dress, skin colour, language etc. Why should I prefer another Indian homo sapien to a Canadian one ... or an Iraqi one ... or a Pakistani one ?
Dividing up the entire human population into regions might make sense for better administration, but to start believing that this demarkation is absolute ... is crazy !
Thats like an organization where the Marketing dept starts thinking that the Finance Dept is fundamentally different.
- S.
- #89
Siv
Gold Member
- 89
- 5
I did not forget your assertion. I asked for evidence (objective) of the same. That the USA wanted to kill IRaqis is something we had objective evidence for all along. The US started moving in their troops long before the weapons inspection and have said so multiple times that whatever be the outcome of the inspection, they'll attack !
As Jay Leno said ... " "Iraq began destroying those missiles they don't have over the weekend.
See, President Bush may be the smartest military president in history.
First, he gets Iraq to destroy all of their own weapons. Then, he declares war."
There is zero objective evidence that the Iraqis wanted to kill you. And yet you declared war on them.
see, you're powerful and want a fight ... that's ok (its not, but no one can stop you!) ... but don't give us this sanctimonious bull****. Everyone knows what this war is all about. We're not blind.
- S.
- #90
Alias
We are at war with terrorists. The presumption that we think that Iraq is full of terrorists is absurd. Saddam's regime, on the other hand, is the very definition of 'terrorism'. If you can't see that, you might want to pay more attention.
The idea that this means that everything we do is designed to kill terrorists is simply ridiculous. While killing the ones that exist is fine by me, that doesn't solve the underlying problem. The underlying problem is that terrorists are born out of oppression. And this oppression comes, mostly, from their governments. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their governments.
The idea that this means that everything we do is designed to kill terrorists is simply ridiculous. While killing the ones that exist is fine by me, that doesn't solve the underlying problem. The underlying problem is that terrorists are born out of oppression. And this oppression comes, mostly, from their governments. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their governments.