America you don't know what you've done.

[Laser Eyes]

When I see the violent and passionate protests against the US right across the Arab world I feel a great dread and sadness at what I know is coming. There will be a level of terrorism that the US has never known. Look at the anger that is building. The anti-American hatred that the US is generating in Arab countries will fuel decades of terrorism. I predict that for years to come there will be many more terrorist attacks on US soil and unfortunately many deaths. If you thought the terrorist attack on 9/11 was bad just watch out. Worse is to come. The US - so much power and so little wisdom.

 

[Alias]

Go hide in a closet. We'll let you know when it's over.

 

[russ_watters]

Go hide in a closet. We'll let you know when it's over.

Lol, Alias. I won't tell him if you don't...

 

[Laser Eyes]

Go hide in a closet. We'll let you know when it's over.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother caring.

 

[Alias]

Caring is fine and noble. I think that most of us actually do. The problem is that caring alone isn't enough. What is worse, is caring about those that don't give a crap about you. This is where people at this forum seem to have a problem.

Not all people are good, just because they are human. Some people are bad. Some people have no consideration for their fellow humans and never will. These people are best left alone. Unfortunately, sometimes these people wish to impose their will on you, your friends or your family. When this happens, it is necessary to act. And yes sometimes when you act, it is like agitating a hornets nest. Things sometimes become more difficult. But that's life. You deal with the threat, absorb your loses, and move on.

Of course, when dealing with dangerous human beings, you have a couple of options. One method is to imprison, rehabilitate, and then release. Another is to kill. Sometimes the former is not effective. That leaves us with the latter. Sadam, his followers, and every anti-western terrorist falls under the last category. The best thing that can be done, for the sake of humanity, is to kill these people. I know it sounds harsh, but it is the only viable alternative.

 

[Zero]

Alias, the question is, how far do you go? Do you resort to genocide so you can feel safe against an attack that will likely not affect you personally? You cannot fight terrorism with killing,because it simply creates more terrorism...THAT'S THE POINT OF TERRORISM! Terrorism, in part, is designed to force teh very reaction you advocate. You have the makings of a terrorist supporter in your own way, whether you know it or not.

 

[Alias]

Originally posted by Zero
You cannot fight terrorism with killing, because it simply creates more terrorism...THAT'S THE POINT OF TERRORISM!

I disagree. It's like fighting gangs in LA. You kill one gang member, you're in trouble. You kill all of them, you own the turf.

Of course, I understand it is not as simple as that, but it's a start.

------------------

Question: Do you think that Usama Bin Laden would stand down his fighters if the US military pulled out of Saudi Arabia, and the US stopped supporting Israel? (Disregard the current conflict in Iraq)

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Alias
I disagree. It's like fighting gangs in LA. You kill one gang member, you're in trouble. You kill all of them, you own the turf.

Of course, I understand it is not as simple as that, but it's a start.

------------------

Question: Do you think that Usama Bin Laden would stand down his fighters if the US military pulled out of Saudi Arabia, and the US stopped supporting Israel? (Disregard the current conflict in Iraq)

No, it isn't a start...it is a recipe for more violence. Will you kill a man's children, to make sure they don't grow up hating you for killing their father? Will you show 'mercy' by sterilizing their wives and daughters?

 

[Alias]

You can't not punish people for doing the wrong thing because it might make them angry.

So what's your solution to terrorism?

Oh, and answer my Bin Laden question?!

 

[Zero]

Hmmmm...is revenge the most important thing in your mind? Is it worth destroying entire cultures for the sake of vengence? And who are you going to punish, exactly? That is one of teh points of terrorism; no uniforms, not central organization, no one to punish.

 

[Alias]

No. Defense is the most important.

How would you handle it?

And what about this question...

Do you think that Usama Bin Laden would stand down his fighters if the US military pulled out of Saudi Arabia, and the US stopped supporting Israel? (Disregard the current conflict in Iraq)

 

[Zero]

I can't tell you what Bin Laden would do...I'm not a TV psychic.

I can tell you that defense and mass murder are not the same thing. You seem to suggest that we should simply gun down people who disagree with U.S. policies, on the grounds that some of them might be terrorists.

 

[N_Quire]

Alias, First of all I support this war against Saddam Hussein. I think it's the right thing to do and I think the world will come around eventually and agree that eliminating Saddam and his leadership was an act of liberation.

However, you can't simply dismiss the war critics as cowards and bleeding heart liberals. They have a point when they say that anti-American sentiment is being fuelled and that the world could become less safe as a result of the war. There are huge costs to consider, for instance losses of business income as a result of American reluctance to travel abroad, damage to relations with our allies, future mistrust of America and its motives, etc, etc.

When the war is over, there will have to be reconstruction and diplomacy, not just in Iraq but between the USA and France, Germany, and so on. American isolationism would be pointless.

The peace protesters should understand too that the time for their efforts is not simply in times of war but they should be doing their bit by whatever means available to stop thugs and tyrants coming to power. War is not only a failing of politics and diplomacy, it is also a sign of the failure of the peace movement in finding ways to be active and constructive in global politics. It is so easy and lazy to demonstrate when war has started. What are these folks doing in peace time to keep the peace?

So please, Alias, a complete picture is needed. Military might couple with diplomacy and enlightened leadership are required.

 

[Alias]

N_Quire,

You are mostly correct.

However, when it comes to terrorists that hate Americans, and activly try to kill them, there is only one correct response. That response is to kill them. If that makes other people hate and want to kill Americans as well, then I say kill them too. Let the cycle continue as long is it must until people realize that trying to kill Americans will only bring them death. I firmly believe that at some point, people will get the message.

My main argument with the left is, they rarely have a viable solution and mostly consume time, resources, and sometimes human life with their complaints.

 

[N_Quire]

Alias, I agree with you. Even if a direct link between Al Qaeda and Saddam is yet to be proved, I don't need evidence of the link in order to support the war. Saddam is a brutal dictator who maims, tortures, gases and murders the citizens of his own country. He should and will be removed.

 

[Nicool003]

When I see the violent and passionate protests against the US right across the Arab world I feel a great dread and sadness at what I know is coming.

Think for a minute. Afghanistan "hated" us because the women couldn't speak out and the men were forced into terror training centers or else forced to work. Now Afghanistan loves us. They have been doing well. The same will be for Iraq. THey hate saddam but are forced to live under his rule and everyone else was too much of a WIMP to do anything.

There will be a level of terrorism that the US has never known. Look at the anger that is building. The anti-American hatred that the US is generating in Arab countries will fuel decades of terrorism. I predict that for years to come there will be many more terrorist attacks on US soil and unfortunately many deaths. If you thought the terrorist attack on 9/11 was bad just watch out.

How do you know?

The US - so much power and so little wisdom

stick that your ear.

 

[LURCH]

The point that I can help noticing is that the Trade Center Massacre happened while we were at peace. And look what it got us. Hoping that if we left them alone, they would leave us alone and adopting a "live in let live" stance resulted in those attacks.

Immediately after the attacks, an Arab businessman made the comment, "perhaps the U.S. should rethink its policies in the Middle East".

Perhaps we have.

 

[Galatea]

I love how the "liberals" are always advocating peace but never offering any viable alternatives. Do you honestly believe if we love Saddam enough and send some white doves flying over Iraq things will be ok? Zero, do you have any bright ideas about what could be done?

Because all I've seen from people who think like you is a few semi-hostile (and pointless) protests about the war which did nothing but give people without jobs something to do and waste even more government money.

I do support the war because I think the US is going about things fairly carefully - I wouldn't condone a straight bombing, but I'm sick of liberals doing _nothing_ but whining and worshipping Tom Daschle.

 

[Ben-CS]

Who is Tom Daschle? Is he someone I should know about? May I make puns from his name?

 

[damgo]

^^^ Tom Daschle is a US Senator; he's the Democratic minority leader.

It's begging the question to ask "well what other solutions than war do you have to get rid of Saddam?" What if I said "China/North Korea/the USSR is a repressive dictatorship, how else will we get rid of it besides war?" Maybe there's no other way, but should we invade China? Hell no.

A better question is "will a war to remove Saddam do more harm than good?" Anti-war people often (not always) think the answer to this is no.

 

[Laser Eyes]

I disagree. It's like fighting gangs in LA. You kill one gang member, you're in trouble. You kill all of them, you own the turf.

Of course, I understand it is not as simple as that, but it's a start.

That was Hitler's philosophy. Kill all the Jews, you own the turf.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
That was Hitler's philosophy. Kill all the Jews, you own the turf.

So..in order to make your point seem superior you must make such a stretch as to compare jews to gangs? Hitler's philosophy was to kill the jews and you have a nice superior anglo saxon world. Give me a break, your bordering on the dispicable.

 

[kyleb]

i find it despicable to see people ignoring the similarities between the two.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by kyleb
i find it despicable to see people ignoring the similarities between the two.

Oh, really, maybe you should explain to all what the similarities between gangs and jews are? please, do tell.

 

[kyleb]

i am talking about the similarities between wiping out gangs who you don't get along with and religions you don't get along with.

 

[russ_watters]

The point that I can help noticing is that the Trade Center Massacre happened while we were at peace. And look what he got us. Hoping that if we left them alone, they would leave us alone and adopting a "live in let live" stance resulted in those attacks.

This is such a hugely important point, yet it is ignored. Inconvenient maybe?

Oh, really, maybe you should explain to all what the similarities between gangs and jews are? please, do tell.

Kat, Kyleb's insinuation was quite clear - Jews are a gang of criminals that should be wiped out. Again, Kyleb. Sick. I'm really starting to think you need medical attention.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
When I see the violent and passionate protests against the US right across the Arab world I feel a great dread and sadness at what I know is coming. There will be a level of terrorism that the US has never known. Look at the anger that is building. The anti-American hatred that the US is generating in Arab countries will fuel decades of terrorism. I predict that for years to come there will be many more terrorist attacks on US soil and unfortunately many deaths. If you thought the terrorist attack on 9/11 was bad just watch out. Worse is to come. The US - so much power and so little wisdom.

So ?
What else is new...
At least, now there's one less country to worry
about. Hopefully, if Iraq becomes a successful
democratic country it will serve as an additional
"internal" example to all those fools.

Live long and prosper.

 

[kyleb]

russ_watters, i take it you have reading comperhesion issues?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Galatea
I love how the "liberals" are always advocating peace but never offering any viable alternatives. Do you honestly believe if we love Saddam enough and send some white doves flying over Iraq things will be ok? Zero, do you have any bright ideas about what could be done?

Because all I've seen from people who think like you is a few semi-hostile (and pointless) protests about the war which did nothing but give people without jobs something to do and waste even more government money.

I do support the war because I think the US is going about things fairly carefully - I wouldn't condone a straight bombing, but I'm sick of liberals doing _nothing_ but whining and worshipping Tom Daschle.

Didn't I used to respect you? Too bad you had to post this screed against 'liberals', whoever they are.

The question you need to consider is this: if someone doesn't agree with you, or the chimp in the White House 100%, does that mean they are 100% opposed to you? Did you ever consider the vast grey area between the Bush plan and complete pacifism? Worshipping who? Because we don't worship Bush, we must worship his opposition?

Think on that, and try again.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by kat
So..in order to make your point seem superior you must make such a stretch as to compare jews to gangs? Hitler's philosophy was to kill the jews and you have a nice superior anglo saxon world. Give me a break, your bordering on the dispicable.

I think you are being oversensitive, like most people are about Jews...and as though you can lump a group together and pretend they all fit in one tiny box.

 

[rutwig]

The comparison gangs/jews is indeed bad. You could have said jews/muslims, since both refer to religious and cultural groups. But the same applies to catholics/protestants/ortodox, etc.

To the terrorism, to kill the opponents is maybe a good solution, but this is a vicious cycle that never ends. And no islamic terrorist will care whether he will be killed if he kills americans, since for them to die is a kind of liberation. Then you should eliminate the whole islamic world, but this is genocide, because the terms would be the same applied to jews along history. To generalize is the worst mistake than can be done.

Surely the actual conflict will generate new attacks, but with the time this will become routine.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
I think you are being oversensitive, like most people are about Jews...and as though you can lump a group together and pretend they all fit in one tiny box.

No, I don't believe I'm being "oversensitive". There is no parrallel between police ridding the city of gangs=armies ridding the world of terrorism=hitler ridding the world of jews. Gangs terrorize communities and in some cases cities, terrorist terrorize cities, countries and in some cases the large chunks of the world. Jews did not terrorize Hitler.

As an aside, it appears to me that kyleb uses arguing tactics that you would never find acceptable were he not on the "anti" war side of the coin.

 

[Laser Eyes]

Originally posted by kat
No, I don't believe I'm being "oversensitive". There is no parrallel between police ridding the city of gangs=armies ridding the world of terrorism=hitler ridding the world of jews. Gangs terrorize communities and in some cases cities, terrorist terrorize cities, countries and in some cases the large chunks of the world. Jews did not terrorize Hitler.

The suggestion that brought up the comparison with Hitler and the Jews was that you can wipe out terrorism by simply killing all terrorists. Hitler couldn't exterminate the Jews (though he tried very hard) and the US isn't going to rid itself or the world of terrorists by the so-called war on terrorism. It will have the reverse effect. The point I have been trying to make is that by invading Iraq America is creating more terrorists/terrorism than would otherwise exist.

After 9/11 I saw many US politicians and others on TV making speeches about how terrible it was but one thing I never heard anyone say (and still haven't) is to ask "What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?" Do you think some Arabs got out of bed one day and for no particular reason decided to form a terrorist group, go to America, learn how to fly, hijack four passenger jets and fly them into buildings to kill thousand of innocent people? There must have been a reason for it but one thing America will not do is look in the mirror to find it.

Think about the effect this invasion of Iraq is going to have in the years to come. If you think Arabs hated America before you aint seen nothing yet. Terrorism is fueled by hatred. The organisers of terrorism will have countless young volunteers who will gladly give up their lives to get back at the "evil empire". There is going to be so much terrorism in America in the next few years that it will transform the country. Life in the US will never be the same. If you think this war against Iraq is going to reduce terrorism you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[russ_watters]

The point I have been trying to make is that by invading Iraq America is creating more terrorists/terrorism than would otherwise exist.

As someone else pointed out, 9/10 was a relatively peaceful day. So clearly violence by the US didn't cause 9/11. And since 9/11 there has not been an increase in terrorist acts against the US. So the violence by the US on the terrorists has NOT increased the amount of terrorism.

After 9/11 I saw many US politicians and others on TV making speeches about how terrible it was but one thing I never heard anyone say (and still haven't) is to ask "What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?" Do you think some Arabs got out of bed one day and for no particular reason decided to form a terrorist group, go to America, learn how to fly, hijack four passenger jets and fly them into buildings to kill thousand of innocent people? There must have been a reason for it but one thing America will not do is look in the mirror to find it.

So answer your own question. What is the US doing that is bad enough to warrant killing 3,000 of our civilians (actually, the goal was to kill EVERYONE in the towers - closer to 50,000 people) and how can we change it? Bin Laden has made some specific demands. Do you consider his demands reasonable?

russ_watters, i take it you have reading comperhesion issues?

Actually, kyle I wasn't the only one to question the analogy. Would you care to clarify how jews are like a gang of criminals?

The suggestion that brought up the comparison with Hitler and the Jews was that you can wipe out terrorism by simply killing all terrorists. Hitler couldn't exterminate the Jews (though he tried very hard) and the US isn't going to rid itself or the world of terrorists by the so-called war on terrorism. It will have the reverse effect.

Laser, so you are saying that killing Jews creates more Jews in the same way killing terrorists creates more terrorists? Even if you are correct in your interpretation of Kyle's analogy, its still a flawed analogy.

 

[Zero]

Lets drop the Jews/Nazis thing, ok? I read it to be reflective of the Nazis, not trying to say anything about Jewish people.