An "Untranslatable" Word?

[sbrothy]

Indeed. It's a "world-language" although we rarely see it as such over here..

 

[pinball1970]

What about “Irony?”

Not the easiest word to define in English, so I would be interested in your versions.

Also, German “schadenfreude” we do not have an English equivalent, so we use it as is.

 

[sbrothy]

What about the difference between "irony" and "sarcasm"? It's like the latter is a more wicked version of the former...

As for "schadenfreude": In Danish we use the Danish translation "skadefryd" (literally the same). Then again Danish is very close to German, if not an actual subset.

 

[OmCheeto]

My all time favorite is 'idiota', an almost internationally, western world, agreed upon word.
In my youth, I dissected the word into 'id' and 'iota', words meaning 'something to do with the brain' and 'very, very, small'.
Unfortunately, 'idiot' is so ancient, that no one seems to know its actual origin.

 

[sbrothy]

Watch out. A lot of these words have become faux pas with the #metoo era. "Retard" (perhaps "imbecile" too) is considered more pejorative, even bigoted, than before. Specifically, "mulatto" is now (and perhaps always has been) comparable to the N-word.

 

[pinball1970]

Watch out. A lot of these words have become faux pas with the #metoo era. "Retard" (perhaps "imbecile" too) is considered more pejorative, even bigoted, than before. Specifically, "mulatto" is now (and perhaps always has been) comparable to the N-word.

Those words were part of the IQ classification last century in the UK and also appeared on marriage certificates, "any history of.."

 

[pinball1970]

What about the difference between "irony" and "sarcasm"? It's like the latter is a more wicked version of the former...

As for "schadenfreude": In Danish we use the Danish translation "skadefryd" (literally the same). Then again Danish is very close to German, if not an actual subset.

They are subtly different things in English. Sarcasm is words regarding a situation that have opposite meaning, usually within a humorous context.
Irony applies to a situation but not necessarily humorous.

Example (this shows my definition has not satisfied me!)

A man is a kidnapped by pirates, the cavalry come within 50 meters with 100 rifles aimed at the pirates, the leader has a knife to his throat, demanding money for his release.

Sarcasm : the kidnapped man shouts, "Hey, just stand there, don't shoot or anything."

Irony : The kidnapped man shouts, "shoot, or I am a dead man!" The soldiers shoot but accidently kill the kidnapped man.

 

[Hill]

Those words were part of the IQ classification last century in the UK and also appeared on marriage certificates, "any history of.."


View attachment 369581

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Idiot:

The title is an ironic reference to the central character of the novel, Lev Nikolayevich Myshkin, a young prince whose goodness, open-hearted simplicity, and guilelessness lead many of the more worldly characters he encounters to mistakenly assume that he lacks intelligence and insight.

 

[Hornbein]

What about the difference between "irony" and "sarcasm"? It's like the latter is a more wicked version of the former...

As for "schadenfreude": In Danish we use the Danish translation "skadefryd" (literally the same). Then again Danish is very close to German, if not an actual subset.

A random happenstance can be ironic but only a human can be sarcastic.

What's the difference between facetious and sarcastic? I'd say the tone of voice, light vs. acid.

 

[Andy Resnick]

"6-7" is untranslatable.

Sorry, low hanging fruit- back to your regularly scheduled program!

 

[pinball1970]

A random happenstance can be ironic but only a human can be sarcastic.

What's the difference between facetious and sarcastic? I'd say the tone of voice, light vs. acid.

Facetious is a joke out of place.

 

[Hornbein]

Facetious is a joke out of place.

Let's ask the experts.

Facetious vs. Sarcastic
While similar, facetious remarks are generally intended to be funny (even if inappropriate), whereas sarcasm is usually designed to mock or be mean.

• Facetious: "Look at what a great job you did cleaning up your bedroom" (When it's still messy, but said lightly).
• Sarcastic: "Wow, you really outdid yourself with this disaster" (Said with biting, harsh intent).

Seems like tone of voice.

Facetiousness is intended to be humorous, even when it is deemed inappropriate.

Conversely, sarcasm is used to mock or deride someone or something, often without any intention to be humorous.

Some say facetiousness is being flip about serious things, but I don't recall ever having seen that. It's being flip about whatever.

 

[sbrothy]

It's a little like the difference between piquant and perverse. Using a feather is piquant, using the entire pheasant is perverse.

 

[Hornbein]

Speaking of substrate effects, the Irish language has no vernacular commonly used terms for "yes" or "no". And that's why in Hiberno-English (the version of English spoken in Ireland), yes or no questions are often answered without using "yes" or "no". "Did he go to the wake?" "He did." "Do you have anything other than Guinness on tap?" "We don't."

 

[Janus]

While Finnish does have words for "yes" and "no" It also does something similar. So for example, The question Maalaatko taulua?" ( Are you painting a picture?) is answered with "Maalaan"( I am painting)

 

[Zaciekawiony]

While Finnish does have words for "yes" and "no" It also does something similar. So for example, The question Maalaatko taulua?" ( Are you painting a picture?) is answered with "Maalaan"( I am painting)

It is similar in Polish language:
-Malujesz obraz? (are you painting a picture?)
-Maluję (I'm painting)

Finnish and Slavic languages (and also Spanish, Korean or Japanese) are Pro-drop Languages (pronoun dropping). Because gender and grammatic case are coded in word's form, pronouns may be omitted. Therefore, it is possible to answer a question with one word. Typical English isn't pro-drop.

 

[Hornbein]

Finnish and Slavic languages (and also Spanish, Korean or Japanese) are Pro-drop Languages (pronoun dropping). Because gender and grammatic case are coded in word's form, pronouns may be omitted.

Indonesian, same. I suspect most languages are like this. Requiring a pronoun is artificial, unnecessary.

In Indonesian gendered words are so rare they don't even have the word "sister". You say "female sibling." There is no "she", "he", "his" or "hers". People are usually referred to by birth order and you can't tell gender from that. There's no word "maid," it's "helper." And so forth.

The genders don't usually cross socialize, it's men with men, women with women, boys with boys, girls with girls. The only country I've seen that isn't like this is Japan, where the sexes mix freely at all ages.

 

[Janus]

It is similar in Polish language:
-Malujesz obraz? (are you painting a picture?)
-Maluję (I'm painting)

Finnish and Slavic languages (and also Spanish, Korean or Japanese) are Pro-drop Languages (pronoun dropping). Because gender and grammatic case are coded in word's form, pronouns may be omitted. Therefore, it is possible to answer a question with one word. Typical English isn't pro-drop.

I am of Finnish descent and grew up in a region of Northern Minnesota, where people of Finnish descent made up roughly 1/5 of the populace (As compared to 1/500 nationwide) This actually had an effect on the speech in the area which gave it a dialect that varied from the standard "Minnesota accent". One of the patterns was dropping pronouns in sentences when they were implied by context.

 

[harborsparrow]

When translating German to English, the challenge is sometimes that one German word has dozens of possible equivalencies in English, because the active vocabulary options in English are huge (English having co-opted vocabulary from so many other languages over time). The 500 core words of German and English are quite similar, but this vocabulary issue makes it extraordinarily difficult to translate German psychology and philosophy writings into English.

It helps to understand this by noting that German does not really have an unabridged dictionary, relying instead on its facile word building capacity. So English has created, from Latin, "superficial", but German just builds "outer-surface" for it.

I have long been amused at how different the interpretations for Sanskrit mantras are, as well as ancient Chinese texts (Lao Tse, etc) are. You could hardly recognize them as being from the same source. Then just think of religious writings such as from the Christian Bible, and how furiously people argue over what the writings mean, when they are a translation of a translation of a translation. Waste of breath to argue over what such text means, IMO, even if you were a linguistics specialist, which in most cases the arguers are not.

Translation really is a kind of dark art, because of the multiplicity of approaches and choices. In a really good translation of anything, half the translated text actually would be footnotes in which the translator explained the biggest choices.