What Does the Russian Word Poshlost Really Mean?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the complexities of translating specific words from various languages into English, focusing on the Russian word "poshlost" and other untranslatable terms from languages such as Czech, Portuguese, Thai, and German. Participants explore the nuances and cultural significance of these words, highlighting the challenges of conveying their meanings accurately in English.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe "poshlost" as a negative aesthetic judgment of something that claims to be exalted but is actually banal, with examples provided.
  • Others mention the Czech word "litost," which Milan Kundera describes as a state of agony and torment related to self-awareness, suggesting it lacks an English equivalent.
  • Participants discuss the Portuguese word "saudade," noting its emotional depth and the absence of a direct English translation.
  • Some contributions highlight various German words adopted into English, such as "Schadenfreude" and "Bildungsroman," which have no direct equivalents in English.
  • There is mention of the Thai phrase "my pen rai," which carries cultural connotations that are difficult for non-native speakers to fully grasp.
  • Discussions arise about the German word "fremdschämen," which describes feeling embarrassed for someone else's actions, and its lack of a direct English counterpart.
  • Participants also explore historical influences on language, such as the adoption of German words in Russian and the impact of cultural exchanges in Europe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the existence of untranslatable words across languages, but multiple competing views remain regarding the nuances and interpretations of specific terms. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the meanings or implications of these words.

Contextual Notes

Some terms discussed are context-dependent and may carry different meanings based on cultural backgrounds. The discussion reflects a variety of interpretations and personal experiences related to language and translation.

  • #151
fresh_42 said:
Here is another untranslatable German word: egal.
Presumably that is the root of egalitarian?
 
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  • #152
fresh_42 said:
Close, but we have whatever, too.
When I learned the expression mir ist egal, it was a bit of a shock that the Germans could ever be that relaxed about anything! I would have thought that Nein, mir ist nicht egal!, would be more common. :wink:
 
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  • #153
  • #154
PeroK said:
When I learned the expression mir ist egal, it was a bit of a shock that the Germans could ever be that relaxed about anything! I would have thought that Nein, mir ist nicht egal!, would be more common. :wink:
Have a look at what we sent to the ESC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZX7EZIFD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lddoHQIZQto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1SG2wWcDlk


And the country is full of Monty Python fans. We even celebrate a British sketch every year (31 days to go from now on) which has long been forgotten in the UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk1Uul6cQhk


My German teacher once gave the best definition of egal I ever heard. Unfortunately, I cannot tell here.
 
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  • #155
Kokoro implies one's intellectual responses, or, in other situations, implies one's emotional reactions, and in many cases, it connotes inclusively the mental, emotional and spiritual states of all sentient beings. Since it is an intangible and elusive word, it is difficult to analyze its meaning and define even in the Japanese language. https://japanhouse.illinois.edu/education/insights/kokoro
Indeed after visiting this web page I felt I knew even less. Maybe it really is an untranslatable word.
 
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  • #156
Hornbein said:
Indeed after visiting this web page I felt I knew even less. Maybe it really is an untranslatable word.
Equals "gestalt."
 
  • #157
I felt this gave me insight into the meaning of kokoro.
 
  • #158
French has no word for "lime". It's a "green lemon" instead.
 
  • #159
Vanadium 50 said:
French has no word for "lime". It's a "green lemon" instead.
And German has no separate word for "glove", which is "Handschuh".
 
  • #160
Bystander said:
(kokoro) Equals "gestalt."
"Strike your opponent's gestalt with your gestalt!" ... I don't know...
 
  • #161
PeroK said:
And German has no separate word for "glove", which is "Handschuh".
It seemed hilarious to me when I learned that "ertrunken" means drowned, knowing by then that "trinken" meant to drink.
 
  • #162
Swamp Thing said:
It seemed hilarious to me when I learned that "ertrunken" means drowned, knowing by then that "trinken" meant to drink.
Prefect: "It's rather unpleasantly like being drunk."
Dent: "What's so wrong with being drunk?"
Prefect: "Ask a glass of water."
 
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  • #163
Vanadium 50 said:
French has no word for "lime". It's a "green lemon" instead.
PeroK said:
And German has no separate word for "glove", which is "Handschuh".
Chinese is filled with words like this. “Tomato” is “western red persimmon.” And “panda” is “bear cat,” but “panda” isn’t a Chinese-English transliteration of “bear cat” (which is “xiongmao” in Mandarin). Apparently the English etymology of “panda” runs through some Nepali language.
 
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  • #164
Chinese : Back in 1850 or so Western currency was "little beards." A US citizen was a "second rate Englishman."

The word for horse is "kudu" both in Nepali and Indonesian. I'm fairly sure the cultures have a common ancestor, not so much because of the languages though. The way the people look and live is similar.
 
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  • #165
Youtube knew I was interested in the meaning of kokoro so it helpfully sent me this little gem. Rocks a ton. You may be put off by the sleaze but don't bail out before the surprise ending. Though I can't claim it taught me anything about kokoro.
 
  • #166
TeethWhitener said:
Chinese is filled with words like this.
I guess it's some definite clue that how seriously can the 'alphabet' affect the 'openness' of a language.
Hard to borrow words from different languages when you just won't have the right 'letter' to write them down...
Compared to that other languages are full of borrowed words.
 
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  • #167
Rive said:
I guess it's some definite clue that how seriously can the 'alphabet' affect the 'openness' of a language.
Hard to borrow words from different languages when you just won't have the right 'letter' to write them down...
Compared to that other languages are full of borrowed words.
Chinese has plenty of borrowed words. “Coffee” is “ka fei” (where the characters are meaningless on their own), “chocolate” is “qiao ke li” (literally translates to something along the lines of “clever strong restraint”) “party” is “pai dui” (literally “river answer,” although now the character “pai” has become incorporated into a number of different words associated with groups of people, including political parties), etc.

Many foreign place and person names are transliterated into something borderline meaningless (“Biden” is “bai deng”—pronounced “buy dung,” but before the conservatives laugh too hard, “Trump” is “te lang pu”—pronounced “to long poo.” Interestingly, “trump” used as a noun is “wang pai,” literally “king card”).
 
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  • #168
Hornbein said:
Youtube knew I was interested in the meaning of kokoro so it helpfully sent me this little gem. Rocks a ton. You may be put off by the sleaze but don't bail out before the surprise ending. Though I can't claim it taught me anything about kokoro.
My 11th grade lit teacher had a thing for Japanese literature and assigned us this book (translated into English). Highly recommend.
 
  • #169
TeethWhitener said:
Chinese has plenty of borrowed words.
I really wonder how would that 'plenty' look on statistical level.

We got no restraints from written language for quite long, and the history here is kind of like a whole bar smashed into a barrel of beer, so at the end while in everyday speech around 60-80% of the words has (at least partial) ancient roots, the known number of our ancient root-words is only around a thousand...
 
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  • #170
DennisN said:
We have a new, pretty funny, word in Swedish: skämskudde (which roughly means "embarrassement pillow".
From wiktionary:
I also remember reading a fun article about Japanese words that don't translate well. I will see if I can find it again.
Maybe "cringeworthy"
 
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