Another day, another (four) murdered in London

[cristo]

Four men, including a teenager, were stabbed to death in one day in separate attacks in London.

A 19-year-old youth, who has not been named, suffered multiple stab wounds in Edmonton, north London.

Later on Thursday two men in their 20s were killed in attacks a few miles away in Leyton and Walthamstow, east London. A man in his 40s died from stab wounds after being found at the back of a disused pub in Tottenham High Road, Tottenham, north London.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7501258.stm

... and it doesn't even make the front page of the news. Instead, BBC news leads with David Davis's joke by-election win.

Is it just me, or is this situation getting pretty serious? 20 teenagers have been murdered this year in London, and every day we wake up an hear of someone else being a victim of knife crime. Or is this just a matter of the media reporting on this more, in an attempt to sway the government to take some action. Has this always been an issue?

 

[Art]

Gov't statistics show the level of knife crime to be steady over the past several years. It has become the focus of media attention lately though with Sky News in particular crusading for tougher laws to clamp down on knife carrying thugs.

To put it in perspective 20 fatal stabbings from a population of 7 million Londoners isn't exactly huge.

 

[cristo]

To put it in perspective 20 fatal stabbings from a population of 7 million Londoners isn't exactly huge.

But this isn't just 20 fatal stabbings, is it? It's 20 fatal stabbings of teenagers. Although, proportionately it's not a huge number, it's still something that's pretty serious, especially if you believe some of the things that these kids say in interviews. The gang culture in London is getting more and more popular, so I think it's about time the government do something about it!

 

[lisab]

I used to live in a city that was taken over by gangs almost overnight. The final straw for me came when an apartment down the block from me was bombed! Someone threw what was described as a quarter-stick of dynomite into an alcove, to discourage that person from selling drugs out of their apartment. The blast was unbelievable - it blew out the windows of a car parked across the street.

Of course everyone called the police - and they never came! They were too busy with all the shootings happening elsewhere. I moved away right after that.

But the cops regrouped and took on the gangs head-on. It took several years, but that city is essentially gang-free now.

The cops in the area where these murders are happening have to get serious right away - this kind of thing can escalate incredibly fast. Sounds like it already has...

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I think it's about time the government do something about it!

For starters, they should pass a law limiting to 20 the number of murders of people between the ages of 13 and 19, inclusive, in the city of London. Once this is done, get back to me.

 

[cristo]

For starters, they should pass a law limiting to 20 the number of murders of people between the ages of 13 and 19, inclusive, in the city of London. Once this is done, get back to me.

I don't know about you, but I don't find this situation very funny.

 

[Art]

But this isn't just 20 fatal stabbings, is it? It's 20 fatal stabbings of teenagers. Although, proportionately it's not a huge number, it's still something that's pretty serious, especially if you believe some of the things that these kids say in interviews. The gang culture in London is getting more and more popular, so I think it's about time the government do something about it!

It's teenagers who join gangs and carry knives so it is not surprising the victims are teenagers.

The police have recently launched a stop and search operation which in a few days resulted in a few hundred arrests. One does wonder why the police aren't doing this on a regular basis rather than wait for Sky News to prompt them into action?? I suspect in the greater scheme of things the police do not see knife crime as a major problem and so not worthy of applying major resources to. A few months back all the media focus was on gun crime. Gun crime hasn't gone away but the news stations with their institutional ADD have moved onto a new latest crusade dragging the police behind them.

Ross Kemp did a very good documentary on gang culture in major British cities and I agree it looks fairly dire but how does one tackle it? The aggressiveness of today's youth is a product of years of PC. When I was young growing up in an English city young people had a healthy respect and fear of adults. Any adult would feel quite entitled to clip some youngster around the head for misbehaving but then the PC brigade waded in. Adults who so much as laid a finger on unruly kids were prosecuted and so over time kids grew to know they could act with impunity and so became more and more unruly to the point where I see the situation now as irreversible.

 

[Art]

According to the official crime statistics murder in England and Wales peaked in 2002/3 at a little over 1000 and has fallen quite sharply since then to 765 in 2005/2006 (including the 52 victims of the London bombings) which puts it on a par with the number of murders back in the early 90's. Given the not inconsiderable increase in Britain's population during this time the rate per capita has declined over time. This fall probably accounts for the police's slightly blase reaction to the current media hype around fatal stabbings.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page40.asp

 

[arildno]

Note that it is predominantly MUSLIM gang culture we are talking about..

 

[WarPhalange]

But this isn't just 20 fatal stabbings, is it? It's 20 fatal stabbings of teenagers.

I know, I don't know what people are crying about, either.

 

[cristo]

I know, I don't know what people are crying about, either.

You don't know what people are crying about? Let me give you a clue: children are being murdered.

 

[drankin]

Note that it is predominantly MUSLIM gang culture we are talking about..

Now, I wouldn't know this unless you told me. Doesn't the media point this out? Or is it not politically correct to show statistics when it involves a predominately religious portion of the community?

 

[f95toli]

Note that it is predominantly MUSLIM gang culture we are talking about..

Eh?

I would say it is mainly an AMERICAN gang culture if you want to point to a specific cultural influence (which is an oversimplification). If you look at the clothes many of them wear, the music they listen to etc it is clearly influenced by the "gangsta" culture.
In some ways British kids are probably more easily influenced by this than their US peers, mainly because most of them have no idea what it is like to REALLY be in an American gang or live in e.g. South Central; they just think the culture is "cool".
But, again, this is an oversimplification. There is no single "cause" of this.

Also, this is nothing new and society as a whole is actually getting less violent in most countries; but we just notice the violence more than in the past due to the 24/7 media coverage. The effect is that while most people are safer they don't feel safer and act (and vote) accordingly.

Moreover, we need to be a bit cynical: 20 teenagers in a city of 7 million is actually not much, compare this number to the number of teenagers that e.g. commited suicide,died in car accident etc

 

[WarPhalange]

You don't know what people are crying about? Let me give you a clue: children are being murdered.

Not children. Teenagers. Sub-human mounds of flesh that operate with a pack mentality and inhale food to turn it into angst and nihilism. It's about time we had a culling of them.

 

[Art]

Now, I wouldn't know this unless you told me. Doesn't the media point this out? Or is it not politically correct to show statistics when it involves a predominately religious portion of the community?

Arildno just made that statistic up off the top of his head for some unknown reason. Pathetic!

 

[Art]

Not children. Teenagers. Sub-human mounds of flesh that operate with a pack mentality and inhale food to turn it into angst and nihilism. It's about time we had a culling of them.

Perhaps they need role models such as yourself to guide them in acquiring characteristics such as tolerance and humanitarianism

 

[cristo]

Not children. Teenagers. Sub-human mounds of flesh that operate with a pack mentality and inhale food to turn it into angst and nihilism. It's about time we had a culling of them.

Wow! So you were never a teenager then? Sorry, but with comments like this it is impossible to take anything you say seriously.

 

[WarPhalange]

That's probably for the best.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Eh?

I would say it is mainly an AMERICAN gang culture if you want to point to a specific cultural influence (which is an oversimplification). If you look at the clothes many of them wear, the music they listen to etc it is clearly influenced by the "gangsta" culture.
In some ways British kids are probably more easily influenced by this than their US peers, mainly because most of them have no idea what it is like to REALLY be in an American gang or live in e.g. South Central; they just think the culture is "cool".
But, again, this is an oversimplification. There is no single "cause" of this.

Nor do the vast majority of American kids have any idea what it is really like. They listen to 'gangsta' rap, watch MTV, wear baggy clothes and 'bling' but have probably never met a real 'gansta' in their entire lives.
Also 'American' gang culture is a so called melting pot too. There are gangs from all different cultures around here. Hispanics, asians, samoans, ect.
I'd hazard the guess that the vast majority of the 'american' style ganstas you see are doing nothing more that trying to look cool.

 

[nabki]

there is a worldwide problem with teenagers, and i don't know why.
in britan, you have 3 types of muslim teenagers
1. the kewl gangsta boyz who all want to beat people up because they arent muslims, hang around street corners and be stupid in general.
2. the radicals.
3. everyone else.

i think the problem is with the general degredation of respect and manners. teenagers feel pointless, and need a sense of identity. they don't have any outline for what they want to do with their lives. or maybe its because of gangsta culture, which as TheStatutoryApe makes teens look up to idiots who are quite pointless and immature. probably its because of a mix of things.

 

[arildno]

Arildno just made that statistic up off the top of his head for some unknown reason. Pathetic!

Really?
TO make just a few examples clear to you:
A couple of years ago, police here in Oslo revealed that 72% of the rapes committed were done by men from "minority groups". (That was revealed to be Somalians and Pakistanis, for the most part).
This was closely related to an extreme rise in gang-rapes.
Similarly, Pakistani groups control much of the heroine trade in the city.

This picture is largely the same all over Europe.

 

[nabki]

and you still haven't given us any good sources arildno. just more allegations. and you can't tie theese people to muslim gangs, since what they are doing is strictly prohibited in islamic law. there is no way they misunderstood that part. unlike the 1. gang members, who believe they are doing what's best.

 

[arildno]

1. You don't read Norwegian
2. You are an ostrich, so it wouldn't be any point, anyway.

 

[nabki]

eh? so you make allegations but you can't back them up because I am an ostrich?

 

[f95toli]

Arildno: The "knife crime problem" has nothing to do with immigrants here in the UK. Whereas some (but far from all) of the kids that have been killed here lately were second or third generation immigrants I don't think you can draw any conclusions from that; besides the fact that crime in general is more likely to affect people from the poorer areas of a city (e.g. some of the estates in southeast London).
"Traditionally" knife-crime in the UK has mainly been a problem in Scotland among white, young men with working-class backgrounds. Over the past few years the number of cases have dropped just about everywhere besides some "hotspots" in e.g. parts of London.

Moreover, most of the "Hoodies" I see around here are definitely white and English.

Don't believe everything you read in "Verdens gang". Some Norwegian papers are almost as
bad as the tabloids here in the UK (I'm Swedish, but my dad lives in Norway).

 

[Art]

Really?

Yes really!

TO make just a few examples clear to you:
A couple of years ago, police here in Oslo revealed that 72% of the rapes committed were done by men from "minority groups". (That was revealed to be Somalians and Pakistanis, for the most part).
This was closely related to an extreme rise in gang-rapes.
Similarly, Pakistani groups control much of the heroine trade in the city.

This picture is largely the same all over Europe.

Geography obviously isn't your strong suit. Since when has Oslo been part of the UK which is the subject of this thread?? And where is your source to show your (once again unsubstantiated) local data bears any resemblance to the profile of criminals in Europe as a whole and the UK in particular.

Here's some information on the UK's sexual assault profiles for 2004, the latest available

Crown Court (deals with serious cases) sentences for sexual assault - White 2157 Black 200 Asian 158 Other 78. Note ethnicity was based on appearance and so includes British born ethnic minority members.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/s95race05.pdf Page 75

As you can see it blows away your theory re Muslims being responsible for 72% of rapes certainly in the UK and given the disparity between reality and what you claim I suspect your Norwegian data was a figment of your imagination.

With only 30,000 Pakistanis in all of Norway. half of which were born there, the males amongst them would have to be phenomenally busy for your statistic to be even remotely true. http://www.ssb.no/innvstat_en/

See it's not so hard to find official sources covering Norway and written in English.

I've often wondered how so called intelligent people especially those who work in scientific fields where conclusions are based on evidence succumb so easily to racial prejudices which by definition are unsupported beliefs. Then again maybe only the stupid ones do

 

[hagopbul]

if the knife stabes are more than 10 this mean that this is a cult or some kind a religious
this crimes are organize they pick there victims. this kind of crimes was happening in the US

and usually they try to rich some number of stabes on every victim...60 to 70 stabes they are well-organized and they have people in police some time... be careful
they uselly do it in dark

 

[arildno]

Well, the 72% were statistics for Oslo, of course. I never said it was right for the UK.
Here's an article on that from Aftenposten, in 2001, when the percentage was 65%.
In the intervening years, that percentage has increased.
"Non-Western immigrants" is a euphemism for Muslims.
Whereas every other immigrant group has virtually the same crime rates as the indigenous population, immigrants from Muslim countries are extremely over-represented:
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece
Our latest batch has been 5 extremely ugly serial rapist cases (I happen to know one victim personally), all 5 perpetrators being Somalian men

 

[arildno]

Furthermore, I wonder how there exists complete idiots who think Islam, or any other religion, is a race.

 

[WarPhalange]

if the knife stabes are more than 10 this mean that this is a cult or some kind a religious
this crimes are organize they pick there victims. this kind of crimes was happening in the US

Or they are just really angry. Or they are under the affect of adrenaline where they can't even think straight and fully commit to whatever action they decide.

Of course, if a religious cult decided to only use 9 stabs, it would completely elude your radar, right?

and usually they try to rich some number of stabes on every victim...60 to 70 stabes they are well-organized and they have people in police some time... be careful
they uselly do it in dark

How do you know so much about knife murders?