Antenna Radiation and propogation doubts

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around doubts related to antenna radiation and propagation, specifically focusing on the behavior of Hertzian dipole antennas, power equations, and the interpretation of electric field components in spherical coordinates. Participants explore theoretical aspects and practical implications of these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why the power radiated by an antenna is given by P radiated = (1/2)I²Rrad, suggesting confusion about the factor of 1/2 and whether it indicates power loss.
  • There is a discussion about whether the half term arises from using RMS values in AC power calculations, leading to questions about the nature of current (peak vs. RMS) in these equations.
  • Some participants propose that the current in the equations should be considered as RMS unless stated otherwise, while others challenge this interpretation.
  • One participant mentions that radiation resistance might be a "fudge factor" and questions its definition in textbooks, suggesting that it should not include the ½ factor.
  • There is a debate about whether a Hertzian dipole can operate with DC current, with some participants indicating that it might be possible under certain conditions.
  • Participants discuss the meaning of Eθ and Eφ in the context of electric fields, questioning whether these components represent angles or distances in spherical coordinates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of power equations and the nature of current in antenna theory. There is no consensus on whether the factor of 1/2 is appropriate or how it relates to RMS values. The discussion on the nature of Eθ and Eφ also remains unresolved, with varying interpretations presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that definitions and conventions may vary between sources, leading to potential confusion. The discussion highlights the need for clarity regarding the assumptions behind the equations and the definitions of variables used.

TheArun
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I have a few doubts regarding antenna radiation and propagation. Kindly look into it and clarify.

Consider a Hertzian dipole antenna,

DOUBT # 1. Generally, when the power is mentioned for an antenna elements such as the power dissipated across radiation resistance(Rrad)

P radiated = (1/2)I2Rrad

Doubt:
1. Generally, Power equation is P = I2Resistance, but according to the above equation only 1/2 of the power across the radiation resistance is actually radiated. Is it a case of power lost and where?
2. Does the half term come from the equation of power across load allowing ac power i.e.,

P = Vrms * Irms cos@

By taking the peak value of V and I and denoting V in terms of I it changes to, P = (1/2)I2R. If that is the case does that mean that,
a) Current, without mentioning explicitly is always considered to be an 'ac current peak value which is in phase with voltage'
and
b) If that is the case, does that also mean that Hertzian dipole or a current element that radiates as an antenna can only be made using a ac current and not dc current?

DOUBT#2: Consider a electric field having θ and φ component i.e.,
E = Eθ aθ + Eφ aφ
where,
E - electric field vector
Eθ - electric field component in θ direction and Eφ - Electric field compo in φ direction

So my doubt is what actually is this Eθ(or Eφ) which is a scalor along θ direction:
Is it a angle in θ direction ie say 30 deg in θ direction OR is it a distance?
 
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TheArun said:
I have a few doubts regarding antenna radiation and propagation. Kindly look into it and clarify.

Consider a Hertzian dipole antenna,

DOUBT # 1. Generally, when the power is mentioned for an antenna elements such as the power dissipated across radiation resistance(Rrad)

P radiated = (1/2)I2Rrad

Doubt:
1. Generally, Power equation is P = I2Resistance, but according to the above equation only 1/2 of the power across the radiation resistance is actually radiated. Is it a case of power lost and where?
2. Does the half term come from the equation of power across load allowing ac power i.e.,

P = Vrms * Irms cos@

By taking the peak value of V and I and denoting V in terms of I it changes to, P = (1/2)I2R. If that is the case does that mean that,
a) Current, without mentioning explicitly is always considered to be an 'ac current peak value which is in phase with voltage'
and
b) If that is the case, does that also mean that Hertzian dipole or a current element that radiates as an antenna can only be made using a ac current and not dc current?

DOUBT#2: Consider a electric field having θ and φ component i.e.,
E = Eθ aθ + Eφ aφ
where,
E - electric field vector
Eθ - electric field component in θ direction and Eφ - Electric field compo in φ direction

So my doubt is what actually is this Eθ(or Eφ) which is a scalor along θ direction:
Is it a angle in θ direction ie say 30 deg in θ direction OR is it a distance?
Regarding Doubt 1, I think it is just confusion about peak and RMS.
Of course, up to half the power is wasted in the generator resistance, as with any system, but we normally specify transmitter power as that portion actually being delivered to the load. So all the transmitter output power is radiated.
For a receiving dipole, only half the incident power is delivered to the load, the remainder being re-radiated. This is also because of the source/load sharing issue.
 
tech99 said:
Regarding Doubt 1, I think it is just confusion about peak and RMS.
Of course, up to half the power is wasted in the generator resistance, as with any system, but we normally specify transmitter power as that portion actually being delivered to the load. So all the transmitter output power is radiated.
For a receiving dipole, only half the incident power is delivered to the load, the remainder being re-radiated. This is also because of the source/load sharing issue.
Thanks for the reply.But you have not cleared my doubt. So, what is the current in the above equations? Is it peak value or rms value?
 
TheArun said:
Thanks for the reply.But you have not cleared my doubt. So, what is the current in the above equations? Is it peak value or rms value?
It is the convention that AC currents and voltages are RMS values unless stated otherwise. So your formula should use RMS current and should not include the factor 1/2.
 
It seems no one is here to clear this doubt.
Thanks tech99 for replying. The equation I wrote here is from a textbook, so may be they meant peak value.
But no one is saying about, is it possible to make with DC current or my 2nd doubt
 
Radiation resistance is a fudge factor. It directly represents the power radiated into space through special relativity. As such it should not include the ½ (as tech99 stated.). If it does in your textbook, it is either a mistake, or their definition of radiation resistance includes some other losses. (Resistive losses due to power matching in the antenna make some sense, but who can say?) For a more generally used equation, check Wikipedia.

Your second doubt should be defined by the conventions the book is using. Variables mean what they are defined to mean. Usually θ and φ are defined as angles (but this is not a requirement). So Eθ aθ sounds like the E field in the θ direction times some number/function a that's associated with θ somehow. (What or where the field is isn't clear.) But without more information, it's hard to tell. Given the earlier ½ I don't even want to guess at the meaning.

Changing magnetic fields make currents. Charges will also travel through resistances to make currents. But unless there's a way to regenerate these, you will not get a DC current. DC generators move the rotor through a constant rate of changing field. Batteries produce new charge at a constant rate.

I'm not sure what you want to do with your E field, but it should be possible to get a DC current through some combination of these techniques. (It might not be easy though.)
 
What I meant by Eθ aθ is just according to normal convention. Eθ is the component of electric field in θ direction(as in spherical coordinates) and aθ is the unit vector (it is 'a caps θ' , I cudn't find a proper symbol for that)
So my doubt is what actually is this Eθ(or Eφ) which is a scalor along θ direction:
Is it a angle in θ direction ie say 30 deg in θ direction OR is it a distance?
If it was in rectangular coods, Eθ is a distance in aθ direction...what about this coods?
 

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