Anti-symmetric tensor question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of the sigma tensor formed from the commutator of gamma matrices and its relation to anti-symmetric tensors, particularly the electromagnetic tensor. Participants explore the theoretical implications and transformations of these tensors within the context of quantum field theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the sigma tensor can represent any anti-symmetric tensor, specifically referencing the relationship to the electromagnetic tensor.
  • Others challenge this claim, asking for references and clarifications regarding the assertion that the sigma tensor can represent all anti-symmetric tensors.
  • One participant cites Griffith's particle physics book, suggesting that the sigma tensor's properties are discussed in Chapter 7, but requests more specific details.
  • Another participant explains that while the sigma tensor has the same index structure as an anti-symmetric tensor, it cannot be varied through Lorentz transformations, requiring it to be combined with Dirac spinors to demonstrate transformation properties.
  • Some participants note that the electromagnetic tensor has more independent components than can be represented by the bilinear products of Dirac spinors, indicating a limitation in expressing the electromagnetic tensor solely in terms of the sigma tensor.
  • A later reply suggests treating the expression involving the sigma tensor as a linear combination of basis elements to form a general anti-symmetric tensor.
  • Participants clarify that the text does not state that the sigma tensor is equal to the electromagnetic tensor, only that it is an anti-symmetric tensor.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the capabilities of the sigma tensor to represent anti-symmetric tensors, with some supporting the claim and others disputing it. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the extent to which the sigma tensor can represent the electromagnetic tensor specifically.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the transformation properties of the sigma tensor and its relationship to the electromagnetic tensor, as well as the dependence on the definitions of the tensors involved.

DuckAmuck
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TL;DR
Can the gamma matrices really represent any anti-symmetric tensor?
The sigma tensor composed of the commutator of gamma matrices is said to be able to represent any anti-symmetric tensor.
\sigma_{\mu\nu} = i/2 [\gamma_\mu,\gamma_\nu]
However, it is not clear how one can arrive at something like the electromagnetic tensor.
F_{\mu\nu} = a \bar{\psi} \sigma_{\mu\nu} \psi ?
Any clarity will be appreciated.
 
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DuckAmuck said:
The sigma tensor composed of the commutator of gamma matrices is said to be able to represent any anti-symmetric tensor.
"Said" where? Do you have a reference?
 
PeterDonis said:
"Said" where? Do you have a reference?
Chapter 7 of Griffith's particle book
 
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OK, can you be more specific (page, edition)? I think your question can be answered as follows. The antisymmetric product (basically matrix commutator) of gammas bears the same index structure as a genuine antisymmetric tensor in spacetime. However, since these are constant matrices (thus can't be varied through a Lorentz transformation), you need them to be "sandwitched" between a product of Dirac spinors. To show that Psibar.sigma_munu.Psi truly transforms as an antimmetric tensor (2-form) under Lorentz transformations, is not an easy task, it's rather tedious.

And F (the Faraday tensor of electromagnetism) is not related to a mere product of Dirac spinors "intertwined" through sigma_munu. You can say that these two tensors are not identical, but covariant (i.e. transform the same way under a Lorentz transformation).
 
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DuckAmuck said:
TL;DR Summary: Can the gamma matrices really represent any anti-symmetric tensor?

The sigma tensor composed of the commutator of gamma matrices is said to be able to represent any anti-symmetric tensor.
\sigma_{\mu\nu} = i/2 [\gamma_\mu,\gamma_\nu]
However, it is not clear how one can arrive at something like the electromagnetic tensor.
F_{\mu\nu} = a \bar{\psi} \sigma_{\mu\nu} \psi ?
Any clarity will be appreciated.
To add to dextercioby: you can't in general. F has 6 independent components and psi, depending on the representation, max 4. There's no way you can express F always in this way. The equality is not in the components, but in their transformation under the Lorentz group.
 
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DuckAmuck said:
$$F_{\mu\nu} = a \bar{\psi} \sigma_{\mu\nu} \psi ?$$

This isn't quite how it is done. Treat
$$\bar{\psi} \sigma_{\mu\nu} \psi$$
as a set of 6 basis elements. To get a general element, write a linear combination of the basis elements, e.g.,
$$F = F^{\mu \nu} \bar{\psi} \sigma_{\mu\nu} \psi.$$
##F## is an anti-symmetric tensor with components ## F^{\mu \nu}##.
 
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2nd edition, page 237

Note, that the text only states that ## \bar \psi \sigma^{\mu \nu}\psi## is an antisymmetric tensor (7.68). It does not say that is equal to the "electromagnetic" tensor.

DuckAmuck said:
The sigma tensor composed of the commutator of gamma matrices is said to be able to represent any anti-symmetric tensor
It does not say this either. We are working with bilinear products of Dirac-spinors in this subchapter.
 
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