News ANuclear Proliferation in Iran: A Cause for Concern or an Unfair Target?

[Art]

As I thought even a quick glance shows your selective editing - For example you forgot to quote this bit

David Albright, president of the Institute for Science and International Security, a nonpartisan arms control group in Washington, said, "The timing of these revelations raises suspicions that the group is attempting to derail Iran's deal with the Europeans, particularly since there is no evidence to back up any of these claims."
He added that the allegation that Pakistan supplied Iran with highly enriched uranium in 2001 "seems preposterous, given the fact that was a year when the United States was really cracking down on Pakistan's nuclear export activities."

 

[alexandra]

If the US wants to follow the 'might is right' policy then fine, there's not a lot anybody can do about it at this time but it would be nice if they just came out and said it instead of treating the rest of the world as if we were cretins feeding us pathetic propaganda to justify the unjustifiable.

Excellent point, Art - this is the most annoying thing of all - the infantile lies, the assumption that people are stupid and can't see what's really happening. While you're right that there's not a lot anybody can do about it at this time, perhaps they're scared there will be a time when people can do something about it? Staving off catastrophe...

 

[alexandra]

On July 27, 2004, the Telegraph reported Iran had broken the seals on nuclear equipment monitored by UN inspectors and was again building and testing machines that could make fissile material for nuclear weapons. Teheran's move violated an agreement with European countries under which Iran suspended “all uranium enrichment activity.” Defying a key demand set by 35 nations, Iran announced September 21, 2004, that it has started converting raw uranium into the gas needed for enrichment, a process that can be used to make nuclear weapons. A couple of weeks later, Iran announced it had processed several tons of raw ''yellowcake'' uranium to prepare it for enrichment - a key step in developing atomic weapons - in defiance of the IAEA (AP, October 6, 2004)...

etc, etc, blah-blah-blah... Does this remind anyone of the lead-up to the Iraq 'war' (*cough*: invasion!). Does it remind anyone of the commercial mass media 'scomplicity in the lies claiming the certain existence of WMDs in Iraq? How stupid do these liers think people are? If you haven't read the children's story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", go read it - there are important lessons to be learned in children's stories.

 

[Lisa!]

i think stopping the known centers from working will slow them down, and not make them do it faster.
they'll probably want to make it faster, but it'll be much harder for them.

I don't think so! Note that I've not agreed with you on secret centers, and I just wanted to say a war would be even more stupid if they would have secret centers!
Sounds like you people never want to learn any lesson from the past. Bush attacked Iraq for finding nukes and they didn't find anything and now the same accusation against Iran and some people already accept them! BUT this war isn't like the last 1. It would lead the world to the third world war. (only if you read the link I posted in my last post, you'd realize how)

 

[Lisa!]

even if the part i cited was out of context and its not a threat, i can't see how you can ignore the fact he believes israel could be completely wiped out with a nuclear bomb - that means he think there will be no retaliation from israel's side..

Huh? Could you please explain more? You mean he's said by using a nuclear bomb, they're able to get the power of retaliation from Israel or what?

i can find enough threats from his mouth in several news site... including big ones like CNN.

And there are lots of threat against Iran from US politician's mouth as well. But anyway could you please find some of them? Note that you said threats not insults or accusations. I mean if they're something like we should remove this tumor, don't bother to post them here. But if you can find something like 'we're going to bomb Israel or start a war against them', that could be something!
You know I googled for it and I just find your article(which is not credible because of choosing only some part of their speech. it's like you say 'I hate people who're stupid.' and then I quote the first part of your speech and cliam he hates people.)
and that's what I found these , and I don't think there's anything important in them by a quick look.
Something like 'Arabs still want to destroy Israel' or others' prediction of Iran's future plans for Israel!
So please let me know if I miss any direct threat in this articles!:shy:

anyway, this former president is the current supreme leader
so i think its pretty valid.

BUT he lost the election to the current president. That means something! and yeah, this current peresident has said 'Israel should be wipped off the map', but he's never mentioned how or by who, has he? and do't forget something very important, Iran isn't = only its politicians.

 

[SOS2008]

Excellent point, Art - this is the most annoying thing of all - the infantile lies, the assumption that people are stupid and can't see what's really happening. While you're right that there's not a lot anybody can do about it at this time, perhaps they're scared there will be a time when people can do something about it? Staving off catastrophe...

Certainly it is about control. All countries want nukes if for no other reason than to prevent invasion, and I don't blame them with Bush in the WH. At the same time the U.S. doesn't like the idea of a bunch of N. Koreas out there that can't be easily dealt with via invasion if so desired.

Will Iran use nukes on Israel? No. What would they gain from it? The rhetoric is no different than Saddam’s when he claimed he had WMD. I’ve said it before that Iran has hoped to start a dialogue with the U.S., but how can that happen when they are on the rather extensive list of “rogue states” and part of the “axis of evil.” Aside from failure to consider motives and benefits, it bothers me that this is the immediate question in regard to Iran. Why not ask if Israel would use nukes on Iran or any other Arab neighbor? It bothers me that invasion is the immediate solution. Suppose we started a dialogue instead?

My concern is proliferation and possible escalation—no matter what country initiates it. Why isn’t this the discussion? Because of the neocon agenda of imperialism, pro-Israel bias, the anti-Arab culture being fostered in the U.S., not to mention U.S. consideration of using nukes itself.

 

[fargoth]

As I thought even a quick glance shows your selective editing - For example you forgot to quote this bit

i did mantion on my original "selective editing" that this is oposition group, The claims could not be independently verified, and independent nuclear experts were divided about whether they could be true.

i don't think your addition dismissed it more then my quote.
i didnt intentionally dropped the part you mantioned, it just seemed unnecessary since i said it the opposition group... though they did say some right things in the past, their word should not be taken as a fact.

 

[fargoth]

Huh? Could you please explain more? You mean he's said by using a nuclear bomb, they're able to get the power of retaliation from Israel or what?
And there are lots of threat against Iran from US politician's mouth as well. But anyway could you please find some of them? Note that you said threats not insults or accusations. I mean if they're something like we should remove this tumor, don't bother to post them here. But if you can find something like 'we're going to bomb Israel or start a war against them', that could be something!
You know I googled for it and I just find your article(which is not credible because of choosing only some part of their speech. it's like you say 'I hate people who're stupid.' and then I quote the first part of your speech and cliam he hates people.)
and that's what I found these , and I don't think there's anything important in them by a quick look.
Something like 'Arabs still want to destroy Israel' or others' prediction of Iran's future plans for Israel!
So please let me know if I miss any direct threat in this articles!:shy:
BUT he lost the election to the current president. That means something! and yeah, this current peresident has said 'Israel should be wipped off the map', but he's never mentioned how or by who, has he? and do't forget something very important, Iran isn't = only its politicians.

hmmm... the one who has control over the military is the supreme leader... so id think the former president got promoted, not dumped by his people.

and as for threats, it'll be really stupid of iran to be making real threats at a time like this.
saying "were going to attack israel next year with a nuke" is most unprobable.
so i guess that if the fact they don't like israel and want it destroyed "somehow" is not enough, then iran isn't dangerous

as for doing things secretely - they did already had two undeclared big centers, and they did secretely made plutonium which can be used only for nuclear weapon... look at my big post, its there.

 

[Lisa!]

etc, etc, blah-blah-blah... Does this remind anyone of the lead-up to the Iraq 'war' (*cough*: invasion!). Does it remind anyone of the commercial mass media 'scomplicity in the lies claiming the certain existence of WMDs in Iraq? How stupid do these liers think people are? If you haven't read the children's story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", go read it - there are important lessons to be learned in children's stories.

Sometimes I think the problem with war lover is their childhood. Perhaps they think war is a kind of game.

 

[fargoth]

I don't think so! Note that I've not agreed with you on secret centers, and I just wanted to say a war would be even more stupid if they would have secret centers!
Sounds like you people never want to learn any lesson from the past. Bush attacked Iraq for finding nukes and they didn't find anything and now the same accusation against Iran and some people already accept them! BUT this war isn't like the last 1. It would lead the world to the third world war. (only if you read the link I posted in my last post, you'd realize how)

what link? this one?
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?p=240082
this thread you posted has no one defending iran... almost everyone there says it'll be attacked, and that on EU3 they called for more restrictions, so its not only the US and israel that are concerned...

 

[fargoth]

Sometimes I think the problem with war lover is their childhood. Perhaps they think war is a kind of game.

who's a war lover?

 

[Lisa!]

hmmm... the one who has control over the military is the supreme leader... so id think the former president got promoted, not dumped by his people.

Please tell me who's a supereme leader and who chooses him?

and as for threats, it'll be really stupid of iran to be making real threats at a time like this.
saying "were going to attack israel next year with a nuke" is most unprobable.
so i guess that if the fact they don't like israel and want it destroyed "somehow" is not enough, then iran isn't dangerous

So Israel and US must be stupid, huh? because they're threatening Iran all the time. Oh perhaps plans for bombing or attacking a country aren't considered as threats?
Please go and take a look on these articles, they're really funny. It's like I say 'Arabs still want to destroy Israel' and then you accused me of having plans for attacking Israel.
or how about this? Someone who dislikes me, is going to buy a shotgun. For sure you jump to conclusion that he's going to kill me(certainly someone should kill him right away since I think he wants to use his shotgun for killing me)

as for doing things secretely - they did already had two undeclared big centers, and they did secretely made plutonium which can be used only for nuclear weapon... look at my big post, its there.

So think about A NUCLEAR WAR, THEN! I don't know what we should think of a person who's in favor of nuclear war.

 

[Lisa!]

who's a war lover?

People who wants to solve the world problems by starting another war, IMO!

what link? this one?
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/...d.php?p=240082
this thread you posted has no one defending iran... almost everyone there says it'll be attacked, and that on EU3 they called for more restrictions, so its not only the US and israel that are concerned...

I didn't mean anyone's defending Iran, there. I think there is a good point in #15!

 

[fargoth]

Please tell me who's a supereme leader and who chooses him?
So Israel and US must be stupid, huh? because they're threatening Iran all the time. Oh perhaps plans for bombing or attacking a country aren't considered as threats?
Please go and take a look on these articles, they're really funny. It's like I say 'Arabs still want to destroy Israel' and then you accused me of having plans for attacking Israel.
or how about this? Someone who dislikes me, is going to buy a shotgun. For sure you jump to conclusion that he's going to kill me(certainly someone should kill him right away since I think he wants to use his shotgun for killing me)
So think about A NUCLEAR WAR, THEN! I don't know what we should think of a person who's in favor of nuclear war.

you won't find any israelli government that says they'll attack iran, on the cantrary, say said they wouldnt...
and i don't think the US said it would either.

saying youd attack is declaring war, no one did it yet, and i think it would be stupid for both sides to declare the war before attacking.

anyway, i don't think someone who sees war as a necessary defense is a war lover.

a war lover would go to war just for getting more power, this may be the case for US if you accept the claims that they want war because of the convertion to petroeuro.
but israel will not gain more power for attacking iran, if they'd do it it'll be only because of existence threat.

and by the way, i said it earlier but you seem to ignore it - i don't think iran -has- nukes yet, they -will- have, it won't be nuclear war if it'll start in the near future.
and i -dont- think a fiull scale war would happen, nor should it.
i think that if things will be done quietly, it'll save a lot of human life.
but something must be done in my opinion.

as for going to war with someone who already has nukes, that'll end the world in my opinion, so its highly not recommanded

 

[Lisa!]

a war lover would go to war just for getting more power, this may be the case for US if you accept the claims that they want war because of the convertion to petroeuro.
but israel will not gain more power for attacking iran, if they'd do it it'll be only because of existence threat.

well, people have different ideas! You have the freedom of thoughts anyway.
Now Could you please answer my question::shy:
1. I asked you for clarification on #95.
2. I asked you who's a supereme leader and who gets to choose him?

Thanks

 

[fargoth]

do i have to do everything?

okay here you go:
1)
i said that if the supreme leader once said that one nuke would destroy israel completely, maybe he thinks it would just end with one nuke,
and no one would do anything after that.
meaning there is a possibility he'll try to nuke israel if he gets the chance... i hope he wont, but there is a possibility, and waiting to see if this possibility realizes is just to dangerous...

2)
Valy-e-Faqih (Supreme Spiritual Leader)

The highest-ranking official in the Islamic Republic is the leader or Vali-e-Faghih (Jurisprudential Guardianship). Iran has three powers namely, the executive, the legislative and the judiciary which are headed by Vali-e-Faghih. The leader or the leadership council is chosen by the Council of Experts, the members of which are elected by the direct vote of the people.

The functions and authorities of the Leader are: Determination of the general policies of the system, holding the supreme command of the Armed Forces, declaration of war or peace, appointment and dismissal of the faqihs (clerical Islamic canonists) of the Council of Guardians, highest authority of the Judiciary, head of Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB), Chief of Joint Staffs, Chief Commander of the Islamic Revolution's Guards Corps (IRGC), chief commanders of the Armed Forces and police forces as well as signing the order of appointment of the president, dismissal of the president after the Supreme Court has given a verdict on the violation by the president of his legal functions or the vote of his incompetence by the Majlis, pardoning or mitigating the sentences of condemned persons, resolving intricate questions of the system that 2cannot be settled through ordinary means through the Expediency Council, resolving disputes and coordinating relations between the three powers.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/leader.htmdo we atleast agree there is a -possibility- that iran would nuke israel sometime in the future?
(maybe i think its bigger, but you must admit some remote possibility exists).
lets say war isn't the solution, do you think anything at all should be done?
i mean except for telling iran they are noughty for trying to build nukes...

 

[alexandra]

Will Iran use nukes on Israel? No. What would they gain from it? The rhetoric is no different than Saddam’s when he claimed he had WMD.

I don't think the Iranians are out to commit mass suicide - as you say, there is no way they'd use nukes on Israel; they'd know what the consequences of such actions would be. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad insists, in what seems a very logical manner to me, that Iran has a right to develop peaceful nuclear technology - and that, in fact, Iran does not need nuclear weapons:

Iran 'does not need nuclear arms'
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said that his country does not need nuclear weapons.

At a rare news conference in Tehran, Mr Ahmadinejad said they were needed only by people who "want to solve everything through the use of force".

The president defended Tehran's recent move to restart nuclear research, which has sparked international condemnation.

Iran says it has a right to peaceful nuclear technology and denies that it is covertly seeking to develop weapons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4612546.stm

I don't understand the logic behind the 'western leaders' who, on the one hand, argue that the only thing we can do to slow down global warming is turn to the 'nuclear energy option' (a view that's highly debatable, but belongs to another discussion), while on the other hand they refuse to let developing countries take this option. But such contradictions are not surprising - such double standards are not new:

Washington's nuclear friends and foes The developing diplomatic row over Iran's nuclear ambitions has highlighted the question of consistency in US and Western efforts to halt the spread of nuclear weapons.

Close US ally Israel is widely believed to have an advanced nuclear arsenal which rarely, if ever, draws any criticism from Washington.

India is quite open about its nuclear weapons programme, but this has not stopped the Americans from proposing an ambitious programme of civil nuclear co-operation with the Indians.

So has strategic interest trumped consistency in the non-proliferation field?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4610434.stm

And here's some ridiculous reasoning to think about:

In stark diplomatic terms Israel and India are in a different category to Iran.

Neither India nor Israel, nor Pakistan for that matter - which is also thought to have a small nuclear arsenal - have signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Thus they are not breaking their treaty obligations in pursuing a nuclear weapons programme. However, Iran has signed the Treaty and is bound by it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4610434.stm

So, it's all right, then? And also, I was wondering how many treaties the US government has signed and does not feel bound by. The Geneva Convention for one? (I'm referring, of course, to Guantanamo Bay).

I’ve said it before that Iran has hoped to start a dialogue with the U.S., but how can that happen when they are on the rather extensive list of “rogue states” and part of the “axis of evil.” Aside from failure to consider motives and benefits, it bothers me that this is the immediate question in regard to Iran. Why not ask if Israel would use nukes on Iran or any other Arab neighbor? It bothers me that invasion is the immediate solution. Suppose we started a dialogue instead?
My concern is proliferation and possible escalation—no matter what country initiates it. Why isn’t this the discussion? Because of the neocon agenda of imperialism, pro-Israel bias, the anti-Arab culture being fostered in the U.S., not to mention U.S. consideration of using nukes itself.

You're right, SOS: there can be no dialogue in these circumstances - and I totally agree with the point you make about what we should *really* be worrying about (nuclear proliferation and escalation)... One would have thought that the neocons would have learned from their experiences in Iraq (hardly a pushover!), but no...

 

[Art]

you won't find any israelli government that says they'll attack iran, on the cantrary, say said they wouldnt...
and i don't think the US said it would either.

Really...

Israel readies forces for strike on nuclear Iran
Uzi Mahnaimi, Tel Aviv, and Sarah Baxter, Washington


ISRAEL’S armed forces have been ordered by Ariel Sharon, the prime minister, to be ready by the end of March for possible strikes on secret uranium enrichment sites in Iran, military sources have revealed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1920074,00.html

 

[alexandra]

or how about this? Someone who dislikes me, is going to buy a shotgun. For sure you jump to conclusion that he's going to kill me(certainly someone should kill him right away since I think he wants to use his shotgun for killing me)

An excellent example of the 'logic' of this situation, Lisa!

So think about A NUCLEAR WAR, THEN! I don't know what we should think of a person who's in favor of nuclear war.

Yep - this is no laughing matter. Perhaps everyone should have a look at some of the footage of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings and their aftermath... or the 1983 movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085404/plotsummary" .

 

[alexandra]

do we atleast agree there is a -possibility- that iran would nuke israel sometime in the future?
(maybe i think its bigger, but you must admit some remote possibility exists).

No, I don't think so - not at all, no possibility at all - if only because Israel is too close to Iran and to Iran's Arab neighbours, who would suffer massively from the nuclear fallout. This is a ridiculous thought - I don't think even the US would have nuked Cuba because it is too close. The only reason the US government nuked Japan was because it was far enough away that US citizens would not be affected.

lets say war isn't the solution, do you think anything at all should be done?
i mean except for telling iran they are noughty for trying to build nukes...

I think Iran should be allowed to develop nuclear technology for peaceful energy purposes. I don't think there is any reason to 'tell them off' because there is no evidence that they have developed nuclear weapons:

Iran has alarmed the international community by removing the seals at its nuclear fuel research sites - but experts say it is several years away from being capable of producing a nuclear bomb.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4606356.stm

. Although there are claims that the Iranian government *wants to* develop nuclear weapons, there is no evidence of this.

 

[fargoth]

ah, so if iran says they don't need nukes, we should believe them?
anyway, i really hope youre right...

ok, I am done commenting on this issue, i will try to reasure myself that nothing bad is going to happen like youre saying, that iran would not use its nukes once it gets them... (or maybe even won't make them at all? although i don't think i can make myself believe this one...)

lets just try to live as nothing is happening around us and hope the nuke won't fall.

and in this optimistic tone...

heh, I am amusing myself, well my stupid usual view of things is that everything happens for the better in life.
guess i should stick to my naive side once more, it had proven itself so far.

 

[Lisa!]

do i have to do everything?

okay here you go:
1)
i said that if the supreme leader once said that one nuke would destroy israel completely, maybe he thinks it would just end with one nuke,
and no one would do anything after that.
meaning there is a possibility he'll try to nuke israel if he gets the chance... i hope he wont, but there is a possibility, and waiting to see if this possibility realizes is just to dangerous...

Sure! For example if I think a human would be killed by shooting him 1 time on his head, that means I might want to kill someone if I ever get a shotgun. [/size]
Are you kidding? He must be crazy to think that no 1 would do anything after that!

2)
Valy-e-Faqih (Supreme Spiritual Leader)

The highest-ranking official in the Islamic Republic is the leader or Vali-e-Faghih (Jurisprudential Guardianship). Iran has three powers namely, the executive, the legislative and the judiciary which are headed by Vali-e-Faghih. The leader or the leadership council is chosen by the Council of Experts, the members of which are elected by the direct vote of the people.

The functions and authorities of the Leader are: Determination of the general policies of the system, holding the supreme command of the Armed Forces, declaration of war or peace, appointment and dismissal of the faqihs (clerical Islamic canonists) of the Council of Guardians, highest authority of the Judiciary, head of Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB), Chief of Joint Staffs, Chief Commander of the Islamic Revolution's Guards Corps (IRGC), chief commanders of the Armed Forces and police forces as well as signing the order of appointment of the president, dismissal of the president after the Supreme Court has given a verdict on the violation by the president of his legal functions or the vote of his incompetence by the Majlis, pardoning or mitigating the sentences of condemned persons, resolving intricate questions of the system that 2cannot be settled through ordinary means through the Expediency Council, resolving disputes and coordinating relations between the three powers.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/leader.htm

Oh dear! The person you're talking abut him is A. Ali Khamenei not former president of Iran Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani! All militaries are under the control of the leader, but he can leave the power to the president if he wants.
Anyway war isn't a joke that you think the leader of a country can decide about it only by his own. People should agree on this too.(at least the majority of the population.) And as far as I know they claim that using nukes is totally immoral according to Islam. But if another country uses nukes against you, that could be another story.

do we atleast agree there is a -possibility- that iran would nuke israel sometime in the future?
(maybe i think its bigger, but you must admit some remote possibility exists).

They might nuke Israel perhaps if US or Israel attacks them!

lets say war isn't the solution, do you think anything at all should be done?
i mean except for telling iran they are noughty for trying to build nukes...

Has Iran ever claimed that "please let us get nukes"? the current problem is that they want Iran to stop all its nuclear activities even the peaceful usage of nuclear energy. I'm not sure about my information on this 1 though.

 

[Lisa!]

you won't find any israelli government that says they'll attack iran, on the cantrary, say said they wouldnt...
and i don't think the US said it would either.

saying youd attack is declaring war, no one did it yet, and i think it would be stupid for both sides to declare the war before attacking.

Ah silly me! I though Israel's said they were going to bomb Iran's nuclear centers!

and by the way, i said it earlier but you seem to ignore it - i don't think iran -has- nukes yet, they -will- have, it won't be nuclear war if it'll start in the near future.
and i -dont- think a fiull scale war would happen, nor should it.

Nope, I didn't ignore it. I just told you if they're that close to get nukes, they'd get it during the war. Although there are other ways to get nukes during the war.

i think that if things will be done quietly, it'll save a lot of human life.
but something must be done in my opinion.

Oh yes, I had forgotten that Iraq war only lasted for afew days. and you know this 1 even would last less than that!

as for going to war with someone who already has nukes, that'll end the world in my opinion, so its highly not recommanded

I hope it WOULD never happen.

PS thank you for answering my question!

Regards

 

[SOS2008]

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad insists, in what seems a very logical manner to me, that Iran has a right to develop peaceful nuclear technology - and that, in fact, Iran does not need nuclear weapons: I don't understand the logic behind the 'western leaders' who, on the one hand, argue that the only thing we can do to slow down global warming is turn to the 'nuclear energy option' (a view that's highly debatable, but belongs to another discussion), while on the other hand they refuse to let developing countries take this option. But such contradictions are not surprising - such double standards are not new.

Exactly. And even though they have oil, aside from environmental issues, it is a limited resource that they would rather export to avoid trade deficits. If only the U.S. could be as smart, but we remain dependent on foreign oil so are compelled to solve our problems with our military might (all brawn, no brains).

And here's some ridiculous reasoning to think about: So, it's all right, then? And also, I was wondering how many treaties the US government has signed and does not feel bound by. The Geneva Convention for one? (I'm referring, of course, to Guantanamo Bay).

You mean like the Kyoto Protocol?

You're right, SOS: there can be no dialogue in these circumstances - and I totally agree with the point you make about what we should *really* be worrying about (nuclear proliferation and escalation)... One would have thought that the neocons would have learned from their experiences in Iraq (hardly a pushover!), but no...

Well the Europeans are trying to carry on the talks -- why they are concerned about Iran's nuclear program I'm not sure. I've been meaning to look into this. But I do know the Iranian people still want reform very badly. This goal has likely been further frustrated due to their new hard-line President, but they do agree with him that they have a right to pursue a nuclear program. A military attack over this would hardly win their hearts and minds.

In the meantime, some neocons may no longer be pleased with Bush, but they still stand behind the invasion of Iraq. The plan has been to continue "addressing hot spots" (i.e., Iran, Syria, etc.). The dream must be fulfilled! When you add the Zionists into the mix, look out, its WWIII (and more like the prophecy will be fulfilled).

 

[selfAdjoint]

And also, I was wondering how many treaties the US government has signed and does not feel bound by.

You mean like the Kyoto Protocol?

The US has NOT signed the Kyoto protocol!

 

[Art]

The US has NOT signed the Kyoto protocol!

President Clinton signed it but it was never ratified by the senate.

 

[Sprinter]

What would Iran do with the nuclear technology? To make nuclear bomb? To attack Israel?

 

[SOS2008]

The US has NOT signed the Kyoto protocol!

Sorry about the confusion. alexandra also makes the point that just because a country is not bound by a treaty does not mean it’s okay to behave as they please. My response was to this--Like Bush not signing the Kyoto Protocol. The U.S. therefore is not breaking a treaty, but this does not mean the U.S. is behaving in an acceptable manner toward the rest of the world.

 

[alexandra]

Sorry about the confusion. alexandra also makes the point that just because a country is not bound by a treaty does not mean it’s okay to behave as they please. My response was to this--Like Bush not signing the Kyoto Protocol. The U.S. therefore is not breaking a treaty, but this does not mean the U.S. is behaving in an acceptable manner toward the rest of the world.

This is exactly what I meant, SOS. And I'm obviously not the only one who holds this view:

US, UN and International Law

The Bush administration has embarked on a strategy of hard line unilateralism, disregarding the UN and international law. The Bush doctrine of preemption defies the UN Charter by allowing the US to use illegal force against other states. Furthermore, Washington ignores, blocks, violates or even unsigns international treaties. The administration rejected the Kyoto protocol and the comprehensive test ban treaty on nuclear disarmament. It repealed the Anti Ballistic Missile treaty and blocked efforts to strengthen the biological weapons convention. The government continues to violate the Geneva Conventions by refusing the rights of the prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. In May 2002, the White House announced that it would unsign the Rome treaty establishing the International Criminal Court, stating that the Court would subject US nationals to a politically motivated international justice.

Much more information here (this is an excellent resource): http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/un/unindex.htm

Have a look at this long list of international treaties the US has either refused to sign or refused to ratify: http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/tables/treaties.htm

The list includes the following treaties:
* Convention of Discrimination Against Women (!)
* Convention on the Rights of the Child (!)
* International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
* Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention
* Mine Ban Treaty

And more! Look at the list. Below that list, there is also a link to an interesting article from the Chicago Journal of International Law:

The Charade of US Ratification of International Human Rights Treaties
By Kenneth Roth*
Chicago Journal of International Law
Fall 2000

It is sadly academic to ask whether international human rights law should trump US domestic law. That is because, on the few occasions when the US government has ratified a human rights treaty, it has done so in a way designed to preclude the treaty from having any domestic effect. Washington pretends to join the international human rights system, but it refuses to permit this system to improve the rights of US citizens.

This approach reflects an attitude toward international human rights law of fear and arrogance--fear that international standards might constrain the unfettered latitude of the global superpower, and arrogance in the conviction that the United States, with its long and proud history of domestic rights protections, has nothing to learn on this subject from the rest of the world. As other governments increasingly see through this short-sighted view of international human rights law, it weakens America's voice as a principled defender of human rights around the world and diminishes America's moral influence and stature.

The US government's approach to the ratification of international human rights treaties is unique. Once the government signs a treaty, the pact is sent to Justice Department lawyers who comb through it looking for any requirement that in their view might be more protective of US citizens' rights than pre-existing US law. In each case, a reservation, declaration, or understanding is drafted to negate the additional rights protection. These qualifications are then submitted to the Senate as part of the ratification package. n1

More: http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/un/2003/0806charade.htm

 

[selfAdjoint]

Have a look at this long list of international treaties the US has either refused to sign or refused to ratify: http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/tables/treaties.htm

And what are we to conclude from this? That the US Senate (which is the arm of government charged with ratifying treaties) and the Presidents (who are charged with presenting the proposed treaties to the Senate) have found these accords not in keeping with the best interests of the US? Is this criminal? The whole UN idea is based on the fact that different countries are sovreign and able to make their own decisions about agreements. Only the UN charter is universal and the US has accepted that; it is constitutionally "the law of the land". So if you want to smear the US government you should focus on our failure to live up to that.

And it's just a cheap shot to demonize Bush on this. Democratic Senators have gone along with the rejections too, and the US public is in favor of their decisions.