Anyone ever taken any of these weird medications ?

[Jurrasic]

Anyone ever taken any of these weird "medications" ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychiatric_medications
This is a list of the names of some of them in alphabetical order,
What happened if it applies to you?

 

[Char. Limit]

I have taken Concerta. I am taking Concerta.

It made me calmer, a good thing, because I couldn't concentrate until I started taking them. So... just what it was supposed to do!

EDIT: Forgot the two side effects... I eat much less when I take the pill than when I don't (think about 1500 calories less), and if I accidentally take it at night, I literally can't sleep all night. Which sucks when you have school the next day, trust me.

 

[Shalashaska]

I have taken Concerta. I am taking Concerta.

It made me calmer, a good thing, because I couldn't concentrate until I started taking them. So... just what it was supposed to do!

EDIT: Forgot the two side effects... I eat much less when I take the pill than when I don't (think about 1500 calories less), and if I accidentally take it at night, I literally can't sleep all night. Which sucks when you have school the next day, trust me.

Pretty typical for an amphetamine, which is why dextroamphetamine used to be marketed as a weight-loss supplement. I can't give advice online, but if that is a problem you've been having, may I suggest you speak to your doctor about a topical patch called Daytrana? It's Methylphenidate just as Ritalin and Concerta are, but it bypasses first-pass hepatic metabolism, and removing it rapidly causes plasma concentrations to fall: no sleepless nights. Some can have a topical reaction to it, but that's pretty rare.

 

[Shalashaska]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychiatric_medications
This is a list of the names of some of them in alphabetical order,
What happened if it applies to you?

That list covers everything from anti-depressants to anti-psychotics, and amphetamines used for ADHD, and everything in between. You would need to name a specific medication to know what it is prescribed for, and if it is off-label use or not.

 

[russ_watters]

Anyone ever taken any of these weird "medications" ?

That title implies a few negative things about these medications. Could you explain why you think they are "weird" and why you have the word "medications" in quotes - it implies you somehow don't think they are real.

 

[Shalashaska]

That title implies a few negative things about these medications. Could you explain why you think they are "weird" and why you have the word "medications" in quotes - it implies you somehow don't think they are real.

Do you think so? I just took him to be young and unfamiliar with powerful psychotropics. I suppose I should be more cautious.

 

[BobG]

I know someone that was prescribed Klonopin for an anxiety disorder. It's fairly benign, but can cause some serious physical withdrawal symptoms if you stop taking it.

The bad part is that the person didn't have an anxiety disorder; they had an undiagnosed thyroid disorder. Now, while the thyroid disorder is finally being treated, the person is still addicted to Klonopin (why they don't do some gradual weaning off the drug, I don't really know).

Generally, I think it's a good idea to be leary of drugs that just mask symptoms. As to why that's done varies. Some of the time, a doctor prescribes a drug as a temporary measure until they can determine the underlying problem, but the patient loses interest in pursuing the cause of the problems once the symptoms quit bothering them.

In this particular case, the person went undiagnosed for years and years until their kid was diagnosed with a thyroid disorder and the doctor started asking if anyone else in the family had the same disorder since it was genetic. That's not unusual - in fact, I found out I was farsighted and that my eyes were different strengths during an eye exam for my son. People tend to worry a lot more about their kids' health than their own.

 

[Shalashaska]

I know someone that was prescribed Klonopin for an anxiety disorder. It's fairly benign, but can cause some serious physical withdrawal symptoms if you stop taking it.

The bad part is that the person didn't have an anxiety disorder; they had an undiagnosed thyroid disorder. Now, while the thyroid disorder is finally being treated, the person is still addicted to Klonopin (why they don't do some gradual weaning off the drug, I don't really know).

Generally, I think it's a good idea to be leary of drugs that just mask symptoms. As to why that's done varies. Some of the time, a doctor prescribes a drug as a temporary measure until they can determine the underlying problem, but the patient loses interest in pursuing the cause of the problems once the symptoms quit bothering them.

Klonopin, like all benzodiazapines is FAR from benign. They are massively abused, and "serious withdrawal" from high doses includes potentially lethal seizures. Remember, Clonazepam, Alprazolam, Diazapam, and other benzodiazapines are all highly addictive both physically and psychologically, and were developed as anti-seizure medications. Their use as anti-anxiolytics is secondary, and did I mention that people rapidly develop tolerance to these drugs?

These are Schedule IV drugs (save for one Sched III) and by no means benign. They are powerful, and therefore useful, but as anti-anxiolytics, CBT has been shown to be nearly (sometimes more) effective in treating Anxiety Disorders, and Panic Disorder.

These drugs provide nearly immediate relief from crushing anxiety, true, and think of how addictive that is alone! Hybrid therapies utilizing Gabapentin and antidepressants are more advisable, and less risky. They also cause somnolence, and all have a characteristic "rebound" during withdrawal which applies to both anxiety AND a lowered seizure threshold. Very dangerous, and very addictive, and too often given as a solution and not an emergency treatment, or last resort. Titration from these drugs is NOT easy, for the patient or the physician.

Leery of, doesn't even begin to describe the professional stance on Benzodiazapines. I understand you're hardly cheering them on, but even someone as cautious as you seems to underestimate the danger of that class of drugs. Meanwhile the federal response punishes people who DO need them, and virtually ignores its use a party drug, or "fun" adjunct to Methadone therapy. I know plenty of doctors who won't prescribe them, period.

 

[Char. Limit]

Pretty typical for an amphetamine, which is why dextroamphetamine used to be marketed as a weight-loss supplement. I can't give advice online, but if that is a problem you've been having, may I suggest you speak to your doctor about a topical patch called Daytrana? It's Methylphenidate just as Ritalin and Concerta are, but it bypasses first-pass hepatic metabolism, and removing it rapidly causes plasma concentrations to fall: no sleepless nights. Some can have a topical reaction to it, but that's pretty rare.

Actually, I don't worry about either of the side effects... I've just noticed them. I no longer take a medication at night anymore, so I don't accidentally take a Concerta, and the eating less cuts down on school lunch costs.

 

[alxm]

Adderall (well not really, D-amphetamine for ADHD, Adderall is a racemic mixture) and Concerta for ADHD.

Bupropion, Effexor, Zoloft for depression. (not at the same time of course)
I've had 2 clinical depressions. It's relatively common to be comorbid with AD(H)D.

Olanzapine (anti-psychotic) as one of my clinical depressions started turning into a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic_depression" . (this was only briefly though, and mostly it seemed to put me to sleep).
And Valium/Benzodiazepine briefly for coping with the anxiety spells that I was having then. Since the topic's been brought up, I'll just say that I was most certainly helped by them. If you're suffering from a paralyzing anxiety, it's wonderful to suddenly have it lifted, and be able to actually start dealing with matters (which helps improve your life and lessen the burden once they're not in effect). But on that same note, it also made the abuse potential pretty obvious.

Quite the laundry list. But it did help me (not alone, of course. Like any drugs, psychiatric medications need to be combined with oversight and therapy).

Psychiatric disorders are as 'real' as any other malady, they kill people. It's really about time we broke this stupid stigma surrounding them.

 

[Shalashaska]

Adderall (well not really, D-amphetamine for ADHD, Adderall is a racemic mixture) and Concerta for ADHD.

Bupropion, Effexor, Zoloft for depression. (not at the same time of course)
I've had 2 clinical depressions. It's relatively common to be comorbid with AD(H)D.

Olanzapine (anti-psychotic) as one of my clinical depressions started turning into a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic_depression" . (this was only briefly though, and mostly it seemed to put me to sleep).
And Valium/Benzodiazepine briefly for coping with the anxiety spells that I was having then. Since the topic's been brought up, I'll just say that I was most certainly helped by them. If you're suffering from a paralyzing anxiety, it's wonderful to suddenly have it lifted, and be able to actually start dealing with matters (which helps improve your life and lessen the burden once they're not in effect). But on that same note, it also made the abuse potential pretty obvious.

Quite the laundry list. But it did help me (not alone, of course. Like any drugs, psychiatric medications need to be combined with oversight and therapy).

Psychiatric disorders are as 'real' as any other malady, they kill people. It's really about time we broke this stupid stigma surrounding them.

I'm truly sorry you had such a rough time; your list of medications reads like a roadmap of trying to find an effective therapy. I know from clinical, although not personal, experience just how terrible it is for people with major depression to try so many medications, and ones such as Effexor which can be painful to withdraw from.

You sound like the kind of person drugs such as Xanax are perfect for, in limited applications, but then you clearly have a strong willingness to participate in the process and stick with it. That can be so hard for so many, when drug after drug fails to help. As for the anti-psychotic, often they can be used as short-term mood stabilizers and sleep-aids. After all, who wants to be awake for paralyzing depression with psychotic features anyway?!

Given your awareness of that (undeserved) stigma, good on you for sharing your story.


Char. Limit: Gotcha, that's good to hear. Weight loss (or rather appetite suppression) is hardly an unwelcome side effect for many, even if weight isn't an issue.

 

[darkchild]

I took Wellbutrin for depression for a while, but I complained that it destroyed my ability to have an orgasm, so the shrink switched me over to Prozac. I can't remember if that had any noticeable side effects; if so, they were minor.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I'm on low dose Amitriptyline as a muscle relaxant for my back. I take it at night as it's supposed to help you get a good nights sleep. It's doing bugger all for my back though.

 

[RealityCheck!]

Crap, I had typed my post & all its links then the page didn't post it & claims I need to log in again & when I refreshed the page, the post area was blank again and my hours of effort were all GONE, no way to retrieve it. Is there any way to make a page remember your post when the page requires you to log in again? I spent a lot of time gathering reference links, etc, only to have hours of work instantly erased.

Briefly, coz I'm not in the mood to spend hours repeating all my research, the statistics of a person developing a mental condition at some time in their lives is 1 in 5. It can happen to ANYONE.

I suggest you do thorough research into these medications and what they do and how they work. You will discover they aren't "weird medications" at all. I don't know what you think is so weird about them or why you show skepticism in the quotes around the word "medications". These are drugs that had to pass rigorous FDA testing & prove effective just to get FDA approval to be used in human medicine.
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/default.htm

Interestingly, some mental conditions such as ADHD, bipolar disorder, etc are commonly seen in geniuses, high achievers, celebrities, and other very successful people.

Science has recently discovered ADHD & genius are genetically linked.
Ninety-eight percent of all greatly successful people have the ADHD gene.

Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder link to genius
article on discovery of genetic link between adhd & genius
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8496955.stmBelow are links to lists of famous people and high achievers who had ADHD or other mental condition.
http://addadhdadvances.com/childadvantage.html
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_0060.shtml
http://www.realmentalhealth.com/depression/depression_celebs.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_depression
http://www.realmentalhealth.com/bipolar/bipolar_celebs.asp
http://www.mentaljokes.com/famous_manic.html
http://www.borntoexplore.org/adhd.htm
http://www.adhdstrategies.com/FamousPeopleWithADD.asp
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/995380/adhd_famous_celebrities_with_adhd.html?cat=5
http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/newsletters/newsletter_30june03.htm
http://www.greatschools.org/special...us-people-dyslexia-ld-or-ad-hd.gs?content=696
http://playbristol.org/static/uploads/1258550998-famou.pdf
http://www.adhdquestionsandanswers.com/People_with_ADHD.html
re Einstein ADHD
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s223949.htm

If you google for lists of famous people with disabilities, mental illnesses, etc, you will probably find many more.

Where would this world be if it weren't for people like Einstein. Edison, Bill Gates, Steven Spielberg, Steve Jobs, Alexander Graham Bell, Benjamin Franklin, the Wright brothers, Abraham Lincoln & many other people such as these, with conditions for which these "weird medications" were developed to help treat or manage?

This list is excellent, with links to biographies of ADHD famous ppl.
http://www.adhdrelief.com/famous.html


and I ended up spending almost 3 more hours redoing my post, gathering worthy links, etc.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Crap, I had typed my post & all its links then the page didn't post it & claims I need to log in again & when I refreshed the page, the post area was blank again and my hours of effort were all GONE, no way to retrieve it. Is there any way to make a page remember your post when the page requires you to log in again? I spent a lot of time gathering reference links, etc, only to have hours of work instantly erased.

Briefly, coz I'm not in the mood to spend hours repeating all my research, the statistics of a person developing a mental condition at some time in their lives is 1 in 5. It can happen to ANYONE.

I suggest you do thorough research into these medications and what they do and how they work. You will discover they aren't "weird medications" at all. I don't know what you think is so weird about them or why you show skepticism in the quotes around the word "medications". These are drugs that had to pass rigorous FDA testing & prove effective just to get FDA approval to be used in human medicine.
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/default.htm

Interestingly, some mental conditions such as ADHD, bipolar disorder, etc are commonly seen in geniuses, high achievers, celebrities, and other very successful people.

Science has recently discovered ADHD & genius are genetically linked.
Ninety-eight percent of all greatly successful people have the ADHD gene.

Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder link to genius
article on discovery of genetic link between adhd & genius
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8496955.stm


Below are links to lists of famous people and high achievers who had ADHD or other mental condition.
http://addadhdadvances.com/childadvantage.html
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_0060.shtml
http://www.realmentalhealth.com/depression/depression_celebs.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_depression
http://www.realmentalhealth.com/bipolar/bipolar_celebs.asp
http://www.mentaljokes.com/famous_manic.html
http://www.borntoexplore.org/adhd.htm
http://www.adhdstrategies.com/FamousPeopleWithADD.asp
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/995380/adhd_famous_celebrities_with_adhd.html?cat=5
http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/newsletters/newsletter_30june03.htm
http://www.greatschools.org/special...us-people-dyslexia-ld-or-ad-hd.gs?content=696
http://playbristol.org/static/uploads/1258550998-famou.pdf
http://www.adhdquestionsandanswers.com/People_with_ADHD.html
re Einstein ADHD
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s223949.htm

If you google for lists of famous people with disabilities, mental illnesses, etc, you will probably find many more.

Where would this world be if it weren't for people like Einstein. Edison, Bill Gates, Steven Spielberg, Steve Jobs, Alexander Graham Bell, Benjamin Franklin, the Wright brothers, Abraham Lincoln & many other people such as these, with conditions for which these "weird medications" were developed to help treat or manage?

This list is excellent, with links to biographies of ADHD famous ppl.
http://www.adhdrelief.com/famous.html


and I ended up spending almost 3 more hours redoing my post, gathering worthy links, etc.

Was there a point to this rant that in any way touched on the OP?

 

[darkchild]

the statistics of a person developing a mental condition at some time in their lives is 1 in 5. It can happen to ANYONE.

HAHAHA, and on whom were these studies conducted? Americans and/or Western Europeans only? ANYONE is a hell of an extrapolation, don't you think?

These are drugs that had to pass rigorous FDA testing & prove effective just to get FDA approval to be used in human medicine.

Yes, FDA employees won't take just any payoff...the price has to be right.

Science has recently discovered ADHD & genius are genetically linked.

According to what definition of genius?

Ninety-eight percent of all greatly successful people have the ADHD gene.

LOL, there's a gene for ADHD now?

Where would this world be if it weren't for people like Einstein. Edison, Bill Gates, Steven Spielberg, Steve Jobs, Alexander Graham Bell, Benjamin Franklin, the Wright brothers, Abraham Lincoln & many other people such as these, with conditions for which these "weird medications" were developed to help treat or manage?

LOL at retroactively diagnosing people.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

HAHAHA, and on whom were these studies conducted? Americans and/or Western Europeans only? ANYONE is a hell of an extrapolation, don't you think?



Yes, FDA employees won't take just any payoff...the price has to be right.



According to what definition of genius?



LOL, there's a gene for ADHD now?



LOL at retroactively diagnosing people.

He's just a crank, and he came here for his first post to be this. He or she is not in this for anything but propagating their pet theory, or some New Age "indigo children" flavor of ****.

 

[RealityCheck!]

I suggest you look at the information on some of the URLS given in my original post. Information at those sites will help answer your questions, which is why I posted those info source URLS in the first place.

Other questions, such as definition of genius and the announcement of the discovery of the genetic link between genius and ADHD, can easily be answered via a simple google search, which is why I didn't go into all the details of those points.

 

[Quark_Chowder]

Actually, I don't worry about either of the side effects... I've just noticed them. I no longer take a medication at night anymore, so I don't accidentally take a Concerta, and the eating less cuts down on school lunch costs.

I take Adderall and Ativan. Adderall was a life-changer for me. And I couldn't make it three days without Ativan (I'm pretty high strung).

 

[pallidin]

Developed a severe anxiety disorder about 12 years ago, often resulting in a panic attacks so bad I had to go to the ER. This lasted for about 3 years. During this time I was on Xanax. During my panic attacks I was usually given Valium at the ER(no prescription) and continued the Xanax.

For some reason unknown to anyone, my anxiety attacks completely stopped for 7 years. And I mean completely. No meds required.

Then, the attacks came back about 3 years ago, with a vengeance. The worst panic attacks I have ever experienced. In one instance I had to pull over my car and call 911.
In another instance my attack was so bad that, while in the ER, they actually had a 6-person cardiac "crash team" hovering around my bed, as my heart rate was explosively high and blood pressure very dangerously high. I was also experiencing severe chest pain and shaking violently.

Anyway, they gave me 2mg of Ativan. That was the first time I had it. Within 40 minutes I felt completely normal.

I am now on Buspar and a low dose of Ativan. So far, so good.

 

[Quark_Chowder]

The worst panic attacks I have ever experienced. In one instance I had to pull over my car and call 911.
In another instance my attack was so bad that, while in the ER, they actually had a 6-person cardiac "crash team" hovering around my bed, as my heart rate was explosively high and blood pressure very dangerously high. I was also experiencing severe chest pain and shaking violently.

Anyway, they gave me 2mg of Ativan. That was the first time I had it. Within 40 minutes I felt completely normal.

I am now on Buspar and a low dose of Ativan. So far, so good.

The worst panic attack I've ever had occurred about a month ago. I didn't have my Ativan with me on campus and so couldn't take any until I made it home. However, I was a good 20 minutes' walk from my car and another 15 minutes' drive home. During that time, the attack just got worse and worse. I wasn't able to think clearly, so I didn't think to call a cab or take the bus home (it was about 11 at night). I did end up driving. Not the wisest thing. I was all over the road. I don't know how I managed to make it home without killing myself or someone else.

By the time I got home, I wasn't able to walk anymore. My feet, lower legs, and hands were numb (lack of oxygen). I even lost sensation around my lips. It really felt like that shot your dentist gives you to numb your mouth before a procedure...except that I couldn't feel my extremities! I literally had to crawl all the way to my bedroom, where I lay on the bed hoping I wouldn't die.

Ativan takes about 20 minutes to kick in. Those 20 minutes were some of the most awful, longest moments of my life.

 

[Evo]

I could not live without ativan. Could not.

Years ago I was in a data class in Dallas and one of the young people had a severe anxiety attack, he was sure he was having a heart attack, Five people (out of a group of twelve) got up and offered him an ativan. I had never heard of it, although I suffered from attacks.

He ended up going to the ER that night where they confirmed he was just suffering from anxiety.

It wasn't until several years later that I asked my doctor if I should be on Ativan, and he prescribed it for me. THANK YOU! OMG, if you have anxiety attacks and aren't on Ativan, GO TO YOUR DOCTOR NOW AND DEMAND IT!

 

[pallidin]

Yep. I agree. Ativan is a godsend. Though it takes for me 40 minutes to notice(the net says 20+ minutes to start working and 90 min to"peak") it has been very capable of knocking my anxiety attacks on their butt.

 

[Broke186]

I've been on Citalopram (an SSRI) for about 6 months to help deal with anxiety and depression. I had an anxiety attack during a class, which was first thought to be a seizure because I ended passing out cold. After an EEG and other tests, I was told I had GAD. The depression came afterwards, and really only peaks during times of high stress and anxiety. The medication has been a great help in dealing with all this, and helps me to concentrate on class and feel normal. In all, it took about a month to become effective, so that month was pretty terrible. Since then, however, the medication keeps my mood stabilized and I really won't have anxiety unless I'm under really high amounts of stress (finals, car accident) and usually it keeps the depression at a minimum. Some of the side effects I experienced were just generally being tired for the first week. I would sleep anytime I wasn't in class, and found it hard to concentrate while in class. After the medicine kicked in, any side effects seemed to have gone away. I also experience some "sexual" side effects, but I'm not certain if that is from the Citalopram or from Lisinopril (for high blood pressure). Mostly good has come from this medication, however, I'm not looking forward to coming off of it as I hear bad things about coming off of SSRI's. There are also other behavioral effects of the medicine that I'm not sure qualify as side effects, but are definitely noteworthy.

 

[Quark_Chowder]

I could not live without ativan. Could not.

Years ago I was in a data class in Dallas and one of the young people had a severe anxiety attack, he was sure he was having a heart attack, Five people (out of a group of twelve) got up and offered him an ativan. I had never heard of it, although I suffered from attacks.

He ended up going to the ER that night where they confirmed he was just suffering from anxiety.

It wasn't until several years later that I asked my doctor if I should be on Ativan, and he prescribed it for me. THANK YOU! OMG, if you have anxiety attacks and aren't on Ativan, GO TO YOUR DOCTOR NOW AND DEMAND IT!

It's funny that you should mention sitting in class and having panic attacks. I had never had one before going into physics. Maybe it was because I was so passionate about physics and trying to get into grad school--like, I was terrified of getting a B in anything--that I developed anxiety (specifically, test anxiety) at all. I went from being cool as a cucumber my freshman year to having to take an Ativan before each and every midterm my senior year.

Sadly, what started out as test anxiety is now generalized anxiety, though 90% of my panic attacks are still related to grad school and physics in one way or another. It's so weird. Perhaps if I just didn't care so much about physics and trying to be a successful physicist, I wouldn't be so anxiety-riddled?

 

[Jurrasic]

That title implies a few negative things about these medications. Could you explain why you think they are "weird" and why you have the word "medications" in quotes - it implies you somehow don't think they are real.

Weird because if you go to the site CCHR.org and these other sites, you'll see that they are very "weird" indeed:

Mentor note: edited to remove crank lawsuit attorney's links.

Any of those that you can think of on the Wikipedia list at the beginning of the thread has a law suit against it.

 

[Newai]

If I were to reply, will I have to wait till next year for an answer?

 

[Evo]

Weird because if you go to the site CCHR.org and these other sites, you'll see that they are very "weird" indeed:

Mentor note: edited to remove crank lawsuit attorney's links.

Any of those that you can think of on the Wikipedia list at the beginning of the thread has a law suit against it.

You need to post links to valid scientific studies in acceptable peer reviwed journals, or a government site such as NIMH.

 

[Lacy33]

I take antiabuse. Have been on it for a while. Been doing well.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Calcium carbonate is a psychiatric medication?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Is this purely a US thing? I'm from the UK and we often hear that much more people in the US take prescription drugs than back here. Glancing through this thread (which I admit is by no means representative) I wonder if it is common to find so many people who have taken drugs before?

(NOTE: I am only assuming that most people are from the US based on how some of the conversations have gone)

 

[pallidin]

Is this purely a US thing? I'm from the UK and we often hear that much more people in the US take prescription drugs than back here. Glancing through this thread (which I admit is by no means representative) I wonder if it is common to find so many people who have taken drugs before?

(NOTE: I am only assuming that most people are from the US based on how some of the conversations have gone)

Yeah, it's just an emotional/societal thing.
There are some global expectations that the U.S. has it "right"

This puts pressure on us, common citizens(of the US), to accept that expectation.

There IS an emotional impact, because some of us do not agree.
Perhaps that's one facet of why I drink... even though political issues do not directly effect me.

I don't know, but I sometimes question the sensibility of being under the umbrella of a super-power.

 

[JaredJames]

I don't know, but I sometimes question the sensibility of being under the umbrella of a super-power.

Trust me, it's better to be under the umbrella of a super power than to be under the frame that once was one.