Applying D'Alembert's principle to a bead on an elliptical hoop

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around applying D'Alembert's principle to analyze a bead constrained to move along an elliptical hoop, considering forces such as weight and elastic force. Participants are examining the implications of the setup, particularly regarding the geometry of the problem and the definitions of various terms involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are questioning the derivation of specific terms related to the elastic force and its components, particularly in relation to the geometry of the ellipse. There are discussions about the definitions of distances and angles used in the calculations, as well as the clarity of the diagrams provided.

Discussion Status

The conversation is ongoing, with participants providing feedback on each other's reasoning and notation. Some have expressed confusion regarding the definitions and relationships between variables, while others are suggesting clarifications that could aid in understanding the problem setup.

Contextual Notes

There are indications of potential misunderstandings regarding the attachment point of the spring and the corresponding forces, as well as the notation used in the equations. Participants are encouraged to clarify their diagrams and definitions to enhance the discussion.

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Homework Statement
A bead of mass ##m## is placed on a vertically oriented elliptical hoop. The mass is attached to a spring of constant ##k## with its end in one of the foci. Find the equations of motion using D'Alembert's principle.
Relevant Equations
D'Alembert's principle
##F_E=-kd##, ##d##: distance between mass and end of the spring
Hi
I've written D'Alembert's principle as you can see in the attached files. I computed the virtual work done by the weight and the elastic force (since the work done by the normal force is zero) and then I used the fundamental hypothesis, which states that the constraint forces can be written as the gradient of the holonomic constraints and the virtual work is zero.
The equation gets ugly, so I want to know if it's okay.
 

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I don't understand how you get terms like ##kd\sin(\theta)##.
The spring is attached to a focus, not to the centre of the ellipse.
 
haruspex said:
I don't understand how you get terms like ##kd\sin(\theta)##.
The spring is attached to a focus, not to the centre of the ellipse.
Maybe I made a mistake, but I think it's possible to write its radial and transversal components using trigonometry
 
Like Tony Stark said:
Maybe I made a mistake, but I think it's possible to write its radial and transversal components using trigonometry
Your working suggests you are defining d as the distance from the point of attachment, i.e. a focus. The magnitude of the force is therefore kd. But the diagram shows theta as the angle around the centre of the ellipse, not the angle the string subtends to the x axis.

It might clarify matters if you were to include the string in the diagram.
 
haruspex said:
Your working suggests you are defining d as the distance from the point of attachment, i.e. a focus. The magnitude of the force is therefore kd. But the diagram shows theta as the angle around the centre of the ellipse, not the angle the string subtends to the x axis.

It might clarify matters if you were to include the string in the diagram.
Ok
But apart from the elastic force, is the solution ok?
 
Like Tony Stark said:
Ok
But apart from the elastic force, is the solution ok?
I'm struggling with your notation. You seem to use ";" both for dot products and for separating elements of a vector.
Having to guess how you will correct the error I indicated above adds further uncertainty.
The ##\vec{\delta r}## vector should be tangential to the hoop, no? I don't understand how you dealt with that. It imposes a relationship between ##\delta r## and ##\delta\theta##.
 
Last edited:

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