Are Ghosts a Global Phenomenon Beyond Mythology?

[Overdose]

Read back a few posts, I've proposed a fairly scientific "open minded" study that someone can do for very little $. Tell me what you think about it. If someone has already done something like this let me know. If not, go out there and do it.

I will look into it, it would be interesting to see if anyone has : ) but I am not going to do it myself, that's absurd; and a way of calling someone's bluff to my mind that someone always tries in everyone of these kinds of threads.

 

[Curious3141]

I am not totally sure these are the same story. Curious3141's version doen't have the important piece of equipment and ridicule by authorities elements of Ultima's story.

That's all I could find after a moderately exhaustive search for a good reference.

You are right, zooby, my story is far less "colorful"/"convincing" than the one hinted at by Ultima. Which goes to show that anecdotal accounts change profoundly in the retelling, as they get embellished and polished by countless lips and tongues. Finally, the story becomes wildly different from the original (if there ever really was an original to begin with). In a word, they are unreliable. Of such stuff are myths, fairy tales and major world religions made.

There was a time in my life I was interested in the study of coincidence and synchronicity. I briefly read Carl Jung on it, discarded his notions as being arrant unprovable nonsense for the most part. But there was one incident that sticks in my mind as being an especially significant (statistically improbable) coincidence. Here's the story.

This happened about a decade ago, I think. At the very least 8 years ago. I was in my medical undergrad days, and like all highly lazy people was looking to get through the thing as quickly and as painlessly as possible, with the absolute minimum of effort. So I got interested in speed-reading around this time. (As it turned out, I found all those techniques to be useless, I just settled on my own style, which was fairly quick yet retentive - but I digress).

My friend and I were out seeing a movie at a shopping center with a cinema incorporated within it. After the movie, we were just browsing around the shops with no real aim, when he spotted a (to him) unfamiliar device in the window of a music store. When asked what that was, I answered that it was a "metronome", and that it was used to time music, with the adjustable bob setting the period of the pendulum, etc.

Directly after the music store was a book store. We wandered in and drifted to the self-help section. I was the first to pick out a book, and the book I picked out was one on speed reading. This was not improbable given my interest in the subject at the time. What *was* improbable was what happened next : I flipped open the book at random to somewhere in the middle and it was the title page of a chapter entitled : "Using a metronome to time your speedreading" (or something to that effect).

What are the odds, eh ? First spot and ponder a metronome by accident, then go to a bookstore and the first reference I see is pertaining to a metronome. And it wasn't in a music book either ! I can't enumerate the odds, but I'm guessing they're pretty low.

Spooky ? Shivers down the spine ? Not really, because this story, while unusual, had none of the usual trappings of portents, premonitions or dead people in it. Any reasonable person would just dismiss the whole thing as an interesting coincidence. But just imagine the same story transformed as follows (I'm assuming the role of irrational spirit-believer in this fictionalised first person account) :

"At this time in my life recently after the passing of insert loved one, my thoughts were consumed by bereavement. I happened to be walking through the street one day when my friend and I went into a bookstore just to browse around. I spotted this great book on ornamental vases, so I picked it up and opened it up at random. Imagine my shock when the first picture was of a beautiful vase holding six lilies ! Lilies were the favorite of my dearly departed insert loved one and he/she was taken from us six weeks ago at the age of sixty ! What are the odds ?

I am certain this is a message from insert loved one, and I am now completely sure there is an afterlife and he/she is watching after me from the great beyond..."

A fairly analogous story, and it seems even a little more probable than my story. Yet it is loaded with a lot of subjective significance, and these may be seen as intelligent messages from paranormal forces by the gullible. You and I would likely dismiss it as a simple coincidence and possibly overthinking the significance of minor events, but you'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) by how many people really think in this fashion. Sad.

What is worse, the story will likely become even more embellished by selective memory and wishful thinking. Little remembered details of the event may become molded to align with strongly recalled details surrounding the death. The vase may become transformed in the mind to be the same design as a favorite of the deceased. The bereaved one may suddenly recall that the deceased was also interested in vases, so it was a paranormal force that was prompting him/her to pick up that book in the first place. The page number may be numerologically linked by suitable contortions and bad math to bear some relation to the death date, birth date, marriage date, or any darn date that had the remotest connection to the deceased. Vagueness/inexactness never fazed a numerologist. I think we all know how these things go.

Sorry for the long winded stories, and I know this has little to do with the thread topic. I just wanted to illustrate a point or two about the unreliablity of anecdotal accounts and the gullibility of people, especially at emotionally fragile times.

 

[Curious3141]

I will look into it, it would be interesting to see if anyone has : ) but I am not going to do it myself, that's absurd; and a way of calling someone's bluff to my mind that someone always tries in everyone of these kinds of threads.

Calling your bluff ? Well, I guess I am. You propound, you prove. Isn't that fair ?

 

[zoobyshoe]

I just wanted to illustrate a point or two about the unreliablity of anecdotal accounts...

Well, I don't think anyone disputes that any given story might be a garbled third hand version. That's the main reason I start asking various questions like, is any of this on record anywhere with a date attached, and do all the participants agree to the version presented. How many times has the plumber told the story? Does it change with each of his retellings? That's more to the point than if other people have been discovered to be dressing it up.

I would imagine that if we dug into it we could find the plumber's original report written down somewhere, as well as something about the "expert" opinion that he was seeing that particular Roman regiment. We could also look into SGTs suggestion about how Romans were costumed in any color movies, or colored representaions of any kind, that existed when he had his sighting.

As far as the version that you linked to goes, I believe I have seen that one talked about on a TV program, and there was an important detail not mentioned in your version, which is the alleged explanation for why he couldn't see them from the knees down, which was something to the effect that they discovered that there used to be a Roman era low stone wall in front of where he saw the soldiers marching. In other words, the reason he couldn't see their lower legs was attributed to them being blocked by the now-missing ancient wall. That may be the thing that Ultima garbled into a disputed "piece of equipment."

 

[Ultimâ]

Well, I must admit I could only vagely recall the details, but it something I've read about and heard about on various ocassions in the past. The quote of Curious is a more accurate version. I'm not sure where zoobyshoe's wall comes into the equation though, who'd build a wall at knee level?

Colour tv in England was sometime after 1960 I believe.

One point in Harry's account that adds a lot of validity is he described their shields as being round rather than rectangular. This suggests that they were auxiliary troops rather than regular legions and is a historical detail that was not known at the time of his experience but has later been validated.

=)

 

[SGT]

I would imagine that if we dug into it we could find the plumber's original report written down somewhere, as well as something about the "expert" opinion that he was seeing that particular Roman regiment. We could also look into SGTs suggestion about how Romans were costumed in any color movies, or colored representaions of any kind, that existed when he had his sighting.

As a child I used to frequent catholic church. If I remember well, Roman soldiers in the pictures of The Way of the Cross, wore red kilts, used helmets and carried round shields, short swords or spears. The only thing I don't remember are the green tunics.

Ultimâ, I didn't suggest color TV, but color movies, that were common in the fifties.

 

[Ultimâ]

Very true SGT, so easy to forget about cinema these days =P

I think the general description of the troops easy enough to explain away, but I find the fact about the shield rather interesting. I wonder if it was ever determined that the legion of the ninth had auxilory troops...

The place I found that quote was
http://www.iopr.org.uk/84701/88101.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
which I know was not my original reference, but I'd believe the authenticity of the statement quoted from this place.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As of last year, the plumber was still alive, and is now a local celebrity:

Mail & Guardian Online:
Address:http://www.mg.co.za/articledirect.aspx?area=&articleid=140713

He had seen films about the Roman era. It must be the round shields that are the contended "piece of equipment".

What was shocking to him was how real every element of the apparition seemed: absolutely solid and detailed. He was so upset by it that he retreated to bed for two weeks.

What is impressive to me is the realistic "battered" details. You wouldn't expect this to have been picked up from a Hollywood film from that era where things were usually depicted as new and shiney.

So, on closer examination, this particular story stands apart in my mind as different, and much more interesting, than most "ghost" sightings.

It would be interesting to find the very earliest reports: the ones written down right after he saw it, and to check into the details of the "expert" opinion that this was a particular "lost" regiment, who would have been carrying round shields. What do the actual historical documents say about this regiment? Do they actually refer to it as missing or it it actually a case where expected mention of its arrival somewhere hasn't been found?

 

[fileen]

Im slipping back a bit, someone said that schizophrenia causes auditory hallucinations. this is incorrect. (I know a lot about hallucinations) there are a lot of people very confused about this disease. most schizophrenics experience visual hallucinations only. auditory hallucinations are uncommon on their own, though can accompany the visual hallucinations. either way there are many many accounts of 'unexplained hallucinations' mine use to scared the crap out of me. I don't have schizorphrenia, or bipolar disorder or any other mental disease. for the last few years I have seen the best doctors in Canada. I have traveled all over the place for explanations. they have none. I have tried every test they will give me. I have had a hard time believing what I see to be 'ghosts' whatever that means. I am certain of nothing. thing is, all the doctors say the same thing 'all I can tell you is that your hallucinations are not psychological.' a few have advised me to 'seek spiritual guidance.' my personal doctor and I have worked on this for a very long time. its come to simply be a joke between us. I have completely baffled her and others. I have spoken to numerous religious experts from all sorts of different religions having no specific one of my own. none of them impressed me too much. I have spoken to people claiming to be psychic. it all seems ... well ... bull. any ways the point I am making is that the doctors keep telling me I am not the only one. apparently there are plenty of people who have uneplained hallucinations, most often children. most people grow out of it, or turn to the explanation of ghosts. the difference is the brain. the brain of a schizorphrenic is different from a normal working brain. not just chemically, but sometimes in proportion as well. another point I would like to make here is that unexplained hallucinations are common in gifted kids. this is possibly opening a whole new can of worms, but this is my biggest interest right now. I am profoundly gifted. this is really the only explanation I have for my daily hallucinations. I have had them all my life. my mom claimed I had "a wonderfully vivid and overactive imagination" I am currently an adult and still struggling with this. here's the catch. lots of gifted kids don't hallucinate. so this really isn't much of an explanation is it? I am not going to take a side on this. I've been observing. I want to know what you all think of this. I find it interesting. I also enjoy learning how people think and react with this subject. its a difficult one, and there's no real proof either way. so much we can't know. some of us have no explanation other than ghosts. what's a ghost? to me they are all around. not necessarily dead, but they are every where and I see hear, smell, and taste them. if I could make it stop I would. I have tried. I have taken lots of medications changing my brain and yet there is no effect. still there. I feel for people who see things. they are sure that what they see is real. it can seem very very real. I don't think it is fair for someone who doesn't experience it to sit there and tell me that I don't see anything because there is nothing there. I suffer severely from depression as well. one of the biggest sources of it comes from being told constantly that I am wrong. "theres nothing there" its hard to describe what its like to be misnderstood all your life. of course I have over come this now, but I still feel very alone despite my doctors attempted reassurance that I am not the only one. I am not ashamed of who I am. I don't hide this obstacle in my life. most people are aware. its funny peoples reactions. there is a huge stigma on people who see things. a stigma I don't see here. some of you have first hand experiences, some of you have only facts you have found in books and on the internet. all I say is this: until it happens to you, until you have been where I am you don't know the first thing about this. its impossible for you to understand. like being in love. until you feel it there is no way to understand it. I don't wish to offend anyone. I was not going to put much input to this conversation, but I felt that perhaps you should know that hallucinating is not such a huge phenomenon. it happens to lots of people, and there are many cases unexplained. I thought perhaps I might warn you that there may be someone close to you who you may offend unintentionally. I understand the point here is to debate and try to filter out the fact from fantasy, but I know there are not always solid facts, especially on this subject.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Im slipping back a bit, someone said that schizophrenia causes auditory hallucinations. this is incorrect.

That was me, and it is not incorrect:

"Hallucinations (Criteria A2) may occur in any sensory modality (e.g. auditory, visual, olfactory, gustatory, and tactile), but auditory hallucinations are by far the most common and characteristic of Scizophrenia. Auditory hallucinations are usually experienced as voices, whether familiar or unfamiliar, that are perceived as distinct from the person's own thoughts. The content may be quite variable, although pejorative or threatning voices are especially common. Certain types of auditory hallucinations (i.e. two or more voices conversing with one another or voices maintaining a running commentary on the person's thoughts or behavior) have been considered to be particularly characteristic of Schizophrenia and were included among Schneider's list of first-rank symptoms. If these types of hallucinations are present, then only this single symptom is needed to satisfy Criterion A."

-Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders Fourth Edition 1994, Page 275

That's for the general diagnosis of schizophrenia. For subtype 295.30 Paranoid Type it also says:

"The essential feature of the Paranoid Type of Schizophrenia is the presence of prominent delusions or auditory hallucinations in the context of a relative preservation of cognitive functioning and affect."

-Same book, page 287

Most libraries have a copy of the DSM-IV in which you can check the above quotes.

 

[SGT]

Im slipping back a bit, someone said that schizophrenia causes auditory hallucinations. this is incorrect. (I know a lot about hallucinations) there are a lot of people very confused about this disease. most schizophrenics experience visual hallucinations only. auditory hallucinations are uncommon on their own, though can accompany the visual hallucinations. either way there are many many accounts of 'unexplained hallucinations' mine use to scared the crap out of me. I don't have schizorphrenia, or bipolar disorder or any other mental disease. for the last few years I have seen the best doctors in Canada. I have traveled all over the place for explanations. they have none. I have tried every test they will give me. I have had a hard time believing what I see to be 'ghosts' whatever that means. I am certain of nothing. thing is, all the doctors say the same thing 'all I can tell you is that your hallucinations are not psychological.' a few have advised me to 'seek spiritual guidance.' my personal doctor and I have worked on this for a very long time. its come to simply be a joke between us. I have completely baffled her and others. I have spoken to numerous religious experts from all sorts of different religions having no specific one of my own. none of them impressed me too much. I have spoken to people claiming to be psychic. it all seems ... well ... bull. any ways the point I am making is that the doctors keep telling me I am not the only one. apparently there are plenty of people who have uneplained hallucinations, most often children. most people grow out of it, or turn to the explanation of ghosts. the difference is the brain. the brain of a schizorphrenic is different from a normal working brain. not just chemically, but sometimes in proportion as well. another point I would like to make here is that unexplained hallucinations are common in gifted kids. this is possibly opening a whole new can of worms, but this is my biggest interest right now. I am profoundly gifted. this is really the only explanation I have for my daily hallucinations. I have had them all my life. my mom claimed I had "a wonderfully vivid and overactive imagination" I am currently an adult and still struggling with this. here's the catch. lots of gifted kids don't hallucinate. so this really isn't much of an explanation is it? I am not going to take a side on this. I've been observing. I want to know what you all think of this. I find it interesting. I also enjoy learning how people think and react with this subject. its a difficult one, and there's no real proof either way. so much we can't know. some of us have no explanation other than ghosts. what's a ghost? to me they are all around. not necessarily dead, but they are every where and I see hear, smell, and taste them. if I could make it stop I would. I have tried. I have taken lots of medications changing my brain and yet there is no effect. still there. I feel for people who see things. they are sure that what they see is real. it can seem very very real. I don't think it is fair for someone who doesn't experience it to sit there and tell me that I don't see anything because there is nothing there. I suffer severely from depression as well. one of the biggest sources of it comes from being told constantly that I am wrong. "theres nothing there" its hard to describe what its like to be misnderstood all your life. of course I have over come this now, but I still feel very alone despite my doctors attempted reassurance that I am not the only one. I am not ashamed of who I am. I don't hide this obstacle in my life. most people are aware. its funny peoples reactions. there is a huge stigma on people who see things. a stigma I don't see here. some of you have first hand experiences, some of you have only facts you have found in books and on the internet. all I say is this: until it happens to you, until you have been where I am you don't know the first thing about this. its impossible for you to understand. like being in love. until you feel it there is no way to understand it. I don't wish to offend anyone. I was not going to put much input to this conversation, but I felt that perhaps you should know that hallucinating is not such a huge phenomenon. it happens to lots of people, and there are many cases unexplained. I thought perhaps I might warn you that there may be someone close to you who you may offend unintentionally. I understand the point here is to debate and try to filter out the fact from fantasy, but I know there are not always solid facts, especially on this subject.

Mathematician John Nash had visual and auditory hallucinations. He even conversed with his hallucinations.
As for being brilliant, John Nash got a Nobel Prize for his work.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't have schizorphrenia, or bipolar disorder or any other mental disease. for the last few years I have seen the best doctors in Canada. I have traveled all over the place for explanations. they have none.

It sounds like you have only been seeing psychiatrists, although you didn't go into detail. Have you been to any neurologists?

To the extent you described what you see I would agree that it isn't "psychological" at all. However there are many organic things that can cause hallucinations that require quite a bit of specific testing for.

Likewise, there are people who are very hard to diagnose because they don't fall squarely into one condition or another. Some people have two things going on at once.

As for creativity and hallucinations, I think you would enjoy reading about Nikola Tesla, who could conjure up full blown three dimensional hallucinations of any device he wanted: he could see it in the air in front of him, and make it do whatever he wanted. He actualy engineered the first polyphase motor this way, rather than on paper, and it worked as he envisioned it. He wrote a little book called "My Inventions" which describes this ability he had.

The downside, though, is that Tesla also had big problems with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. He felt compelled to perform certain rituals from time to time to prevent "bad" things from happening. There is no telling if there was any relationship between his OCD and his creative hallucinations.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Mathematician John Nash had visual and auditory hallucinations. He even conversed with his hallucinations.
As for being brilliant, John Nash got a Nobel Prize for his work.

There is some serious doubt about the way his hallucinations were depicted in "A Beautiful Mind". I haven't got to the bottom of this yet. I haven't found a description by Nash himself of what he experiences. If you know of any, I'd appreciate a link.

 

[fileen]

first off again I have no intention to offend anyone. there was a time when I thought I had schizophrenia. I know that I do not. I am sorry but your books mean nothing to me. my doctor teaches at the university of toronto and works with schizophrenics daily. I know what she has told me about myself and others. I have learned through experience. I have learned not to trust everything written in books or found on the internet. for me to say that you were incorrect was the wrong choice of words. auditory hallucinations most often accompany visual hallucinations. its rare to have auditory hallucinations alone.

"The essential feature of the Paranoid Type of Schizophrenia is the presence of prominent delusions or auditory hallucinations in the context of a relative preservation of cognitive functioning and affect"

understand that the word delusion is used to describe a visual hallucination. its a common term used by most doctors. the direct meaning of schizophrenia is multiple realities. lots of people hallucinate, but are not schizophrenic. its the dilusional thinking that comes with the hallucinations that sets appart people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. schizophrenics are not so much medicated to stop hallucinations, but more to stop the paranoia that they, along with everyone else, is out to get them. its the paranoia that makes it so hard to treat. they don't trust doctors, family, friends, the government, etc. a lot of them end up homeless. many of them think doctors are trying to poison them. watch a beautiful mind. I've never personally seen it (dont watch television) but I have been told many times that its a very true example of schizophrenia.

its also important to realize that there is a huge spectrum of schizofrenics. there are people with all sorts of degrees of schizophrenia. some with only schizophrenic tendancies. a lot of doctors are quick to diagnose people based on few symptoms. my doctor admitted to me that there are likely many people diagnosed with and medicated for schizophrenia who do not have the disease. much of the disease is not fully understood. only recently has the medical world begun to understand schizophrenia and other mental disorders. how long ago was it when we stopped electricuting people?seems to me that doctors have this new explanation and apply it to anything that fits. "here take this and everything will be ok"

 

[fileen]

lots and lots of doctors, not just psychiatrist. I am comfortable living with my hallucinations most of the time. I don't fear them. I can't control them, but I am learning how to make them less vivid and distracting through meditation. I use to paint them and such, but I don't any more. as for obsessive compulsive disorder I find it interesting that you mention it. I had some tendancies as a child, but grew out of it. I was extremely depressed then though. some times when I get really depressed some tendancies come back out, but I have not been severely depressed in years. I figure everyone has a bad day once in a while. my depression is not chemical, and can not be linked with my hallucinations.
perhaps I should watch a beautiful mind. a lot of people talk about it.
the origional point I was trying to make in revealing this information about myself was that lots of people with normal brains hallucinate. obviously my hallucinations can't be all explained by natural causes. they are far to frequent. its not a blur on a hill, it is people who talk to me, and occationally even touch me. ghosts? perhaps. though I personally have a hard time believing all of them to be ghosts. there have been times when I have been with people who have also seen what I saw. my friend mona and I saw a man in her house which was empty other than the two of us. he looked up and threw a pop can at us. I could not of conjured this with my mind. mona has no past history of hallucinations. she wouldn't speak with me for months after that incident. she thought I somehow did it. she's now use to me, and doesn't mind at all. I've heard of people sharing hallucinations. I don't know much about it. a doctor explained it to me once. I've forgotten details, but it can be scientifically explained.

 

[SGT]

There is some serious doubt about the way his hallucinations were depicted in "A Beautiful Mind". I haven't got to the bottom of this yet. I haven't found a description by Nash himself of what he experiences. If you know of any, I'd appreciate a link.

In his autobiography Nash understandably does not enter in details about his hallucinations.

Now I must arrive at the time of my change from scientific rationality of thinking into the delusional thinking characteristic of persons who are psychiatrically diagnosed as "schizophrenic" or "paranoid schizophrenic". But I will not really attempt to describe this long period of time but rather avoid embarrassment by simply omitting to give the details of truly personal type.

From http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/sfeature/sf_nash.html

Interview with John Nash: Hearing Voices

John Nash Initially I did not hear any voices. Some years went by before I heard voices and -- I became first disturbed in 1959, and I didn't hear voices until the summer of 1964 I think, but then after that, I heard voices, and then I began arguing with the concept of the voices.

And ultimately I began rejecting them and deciding not to listen, and, of course, my son has been hearing voices, and if he can progress to the state of rejecting them, he can maybe come out of his mental illness.

The consequence of rejecting the voices is ultimately not hearing the voices. You're really talking to yourself is what the voices are, but it's also parallel to a dream. In a dream it's typical not to be rational.

I had some philosophical ideas that were involved. I found myself thinking in political terms, but then I found myself able to criticize this thinking -- that it wasn't very valuable to think in political terms. Even now, I sometimes have a new realization that it can be not so good to think in political terms about some of the current issues. One can leave that to others.

So in rejecting some of the political ideas, that had a relation to the voices, so I could think of a voice maybe as presenting what was analogous to a political argument, and then I could say, I don't want to listen to that.

 

[zoobyshoe]

auditory hallucinations most often accompany visual hallucinations. its rare to have auditory hallucinations alone.

I am sorry, but this is completely untrue. It is very common to experience only auditory hallucinations, that have no visual component whatever.

"The essential feature of the Paranoid Type of Schizophrenia is the presence of prominent delusions or auditory hallucinations in the context of a relative preservation of cognitive functioning and affect"

understand that the word delusion is used to describe a visual hallucination.

No, the word delusion means "a false belief", and is quite distinct from an hallucination:

"Delusions (Criterion A1) are erroneous beliefs that usually involve a misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g. persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, or grandiose). Persecutory delusions are most common; the person believes he or she is being tormented, followed, tricked, spied on, or subjected to ridicule. Referential delusions are also common; the person believes that certain gestures, comments, passages from books, newspapers, song lyrics, or other environmental cues are specifically directed at him or her. The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear contradictory evidence."

-DSM-IV 1996 page 275

 

[zoobyshoe]

In his autobiography Nash understandably does not enter in details about his hallucinations.

From http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/sfeature/sf_nash.html

From the latter quote we get an exclusive report of auditory hallucinations. There is no indication of the elaborate visual/auditory things depicted in the movie. It could be he never had any visual hallucinations, or it could be that, because of the "embarrassment" he only rarely admits to them. I would still like to find more descriptions by him of what he went through to see if there wasn't some basis for Ron Howard to depict the extrordinary long running hallucination of the roomate who didn't actually exist as a visual phenomenon.

 

[fileen]

Im not about to argue with you. it doesn't seem that either of us will have our oppinions swayed in either direction. let's agree to disagree on this. its rather irrelevant anyways. the origional subject was the existence of ghosts.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Here's a "scratch-the-surface" intro to the unusual experiences non-convulsive, simple partial seizures can cause:

The features of seizures beginning in the temporal lobe can be extremely varied, but certain patterns are common. There may be a mixture of different feelings, emotions, thoughts, and experiences, which may be familiar or completely foreign. In some cases, a series of old memories resurfaces. In others, the person may feel as if everything—including home and family—appears strange. Hallucinations of voices, music, people, smells, or tastes may occur.These features are called "auras" or "warnings." They may last for just a few seconds, or may continue as long as a minute or two.

(Note: it is only called an "aura" or "warning" if it leads into a more serious seizure. If it doesn't, it is called a simple-partial seizure as described below. There is no defect of consciousness during a simple-partial seizure, or during an "aura".)

Experiences during temporal lobe seizures vary in intensity and quality. Sometimes the seizures are so mild that the person barely notices. In other cases, the person may be consumed with fright, intellectual fascination, or even pleasure.

The experiences and sensations that accompany these seizures are often impossible to describe, even for the most eloquent adult. And of course it is even more difficult to get an accurate picture of what children are feeling..."

"...Three-quarters of people with TLE also have simple partial seizures, in which they remain fully conscious. Some people have only simple partial seizures and never have a change in consciousness.."

Temporal Lobe Epilepsy : Epilepsy.com
Address:http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/epilepsy_temporallobe.html

That last sentence: Some people have only simple partial seizures and never have a change in consciousness" points out that, with no convulsions or loss of consciouness, the average person having a simple-partial has no notion to even begin looking for a neurological explanation of any weird experience, and they usually don't.

 

[SGT]

Im not about to argue with you. it doesn't seem that either of us will have our oppinions swayed in either direction. let's agree to disagree on this. its rather irrelevant anyways. the origional subject was the existence of ghosts.

I agree that the technicalities are irrelevant, but hallucinations can account for several of the alleged ghost appearances.

 

[Nerro]

I really hope I'm not parroting here...

A while back I read that sounds with a frequency of 20Hz cause people to become uneasy and in many places where "hauntings" were reported a frequency of around 20Hz was observed in the background noises.

Apparently tigers also produce a sound with a frequency of ~20Hz when they roar just before they attack.

 

[SGT]

I really hope I'm not parroting here...

A while back I read that sounds with a frequency of 20Hz cause people to become uneasy and in many places where "hauntings" were reported a frequency of around 20Hz was observed in the background noises.

Apparently tigers also produce a sound with a frequency of ~20Hz when they roar just before they attack.

Infrasounds are vibrations with frequency below 20Hz. I don't know about tigers, but elephants are capable of emitting infrasounds that can be detected at a distance of 2 km. See here.

 

[fileen]

this is new knowledge to me. I knew abot epilepsy, and I've been tested for it. eeg or ecg or something like that. read brain waves and take pictures. but elephants and tigers...this must be investigated!

 

[zoobyshoe]

this is new knowledge to me. I knew abot epilepsy, and I've been tested for it. eeg or ecg or something like that. read brain waves and take pictures. but elephants and tigers...this must be investigated!

Entrez PubMed
Address:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=88319291

Unfortunately what this paper shows is that only a small percentage of simple-partial seizures will show up on an EEG. This is because they are too small and mostly located too deep in the brain. You need a good neurologist who can diagnose from the symptoms you report, and who doesn't just rely on an EEG. As it says in the last line of the abstract, a clear EEG doesn't prove a person isn't having simple-partial seizures.

Dr. Devinsky who co-wrote that paper is a very well respected seizure expert.

If you google simple partial seizures and also temporal lobe seizures (or temporal lobe epilepsy) you should find no end of articles and no end of descriptions of different kinds of simple partial seizures. I have probably read several hundred different descriptions and I still keep running into kinds I've never heard of before.

 

[zoobyshoe]

A while back I read that sounds with a frequency of 20Hz cause people to become uneasy and in many places where "hauntings" were reported a frequency of around 20Hz was observed in the background noises.

This is Vic Tandy's hypothesis. We discussed it in excruciating detail in this thread:

UK Man "Foils" Ghosts - Physics Help and Math Help - Physics Forums
Address:https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=13559

 

[zoobyshoe]

OK, I dug up a detailed account of the Roman Ghost story by the plumber himself. This isn't from the time he saw it, but it at least has all the details in the best order we're probably going to find. It is actually one of the very best ghost stories I've ever heard:

Interviews
Address:http://www.ghostfindergeneral.co.uk/Interviews.htm

 

[Ultimâ]

delusional:

a persistent false belief that is strongly held despite clear evidence that the belief is actually false. There are many different types of delusions, depending on what the delusion is about. An example would be a person's belief that the FBI was following him/her to put him/her in jail. This is called a delusion of persecution because the person believes he/she is being persecuted against. Delusion comes from the Latin word "deludo" meaning "to play false."

I see no reason why this term couldn't be used about hallucinations . A person that experiences hallucinations that someone is chasing them could be called delusional (As in the case of Jhonny Nash).

That's an interesting read Zoobyshoe, historically, the Romans are supposed to have been small in stature.

Fileen, have you ever had experiences where things you have seen have been recorded as happening in some past time? Have you met any of these other people who have constant paranormal experiences?

Schizophrenia often occurs for a time after severe depression, but is usually diagnosable.

 

[Overdose]

There is no confusion on my part. More than one person reporting the same apparition at the same place isn't proof of anything in particular without a more detailed investigation. It is far less likely, however, to be "mere" hallucination since no two disconnected people are likely to have the same hallucination except by sheer coincidence.

I think its more than unlikely i think its verging on being virtually impossible.

If I were collecting anecdotes I would much rather talk to people involved in a situation like this, than anyone who saw something when completely uncorroborated by someone else.

Ideally yes, i would agree.

What I think is "needed" is for ghost believers to learn much, much more about hallucinations. I've had them myself and can tell you: seeing should not be believing.

This in a nutshell i think is the motivation for your entire position, and it further confirms my long held opinion that peoples beliefs are almost soley guided by their personal experiences. We can talk about evidence all day long, but it is hard (on either side) to crack through that experience that is jumping out in our minds.
I can tell you that I've had experiences of hauntings and am close to a good number of people (mostly family) who have experienced similar things which cannot be simply attributed to hallucinations. Where exactly that leaves us I am not sure, prehaps the truly strange things in life really do have to be seen or experienced first hand to be believed.

I also should finally say in relation to that quote that i have noticed in a lot of these types of threads that you have been following the hallucination explanation quite passionately. While I am glad for the specialist knowledge you bring to the table in these kinds of discussions, i also sometimes feel that you are insisting that this is the only possible explanation and none else should be considered. I personally don't think its the best approach a lot of the time to be honest, but this is just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt of course.

Separate rooms is more convincing. It lessens the possibility that everyone is seeing the same freak illusion caused by some intricate play of light in a single location, or something along those lines.

I agree.

No, I never said in some special cases we can. Not by anecdote over the internet. In the case of multiple unrelated witnesses the chance of it being hallucination starts to drop dramatically, provided it turns out they did all see exactly the same thing.

As i said earlier i think the odds of more than one person having the same hallucination would be so astronomical as to be verging on the impossible. This being the case another explanation is clearly needed which fits the situation more comfortably. Assuming that is that there is enough motivation to conclude that it would be agaisnt their best interests to lie about the whole event of course.

In two haunted house cases I've heard about, the famous Amityville Horror, and another much less well known one I saw featured on a TV program a few years back, it turns out that while everyone in these families all saw and heard frightening, mysterious things, each separate family member saw and heard separate things. No two reported seeing or hearing the same thing even when they were seeing things at the same time.

Do you have a link for this? I am interested to know the full story and exactly how extreme the difference were between what the family members saw.

Why aren't all the family members seeing the same ghostly apparitions, etc? The obvious explanation is that it's because they are all hallucinating. Why? Because it started with some core family member upon whom all the others rely for their sense of stability. If Dad or Mom starts to break down and hallucinate, everyone else will follow suit by sympathetic reaction. Some families are, indeed, that close, and that interdependent.

Im pretty unconvinved by that to be honest, i think you can engineer situations and environments to increase the chances of people becomming on edge and interpreting a creak in the floor boards as an intruder or an owl hooting as some diembodied voice. But the idea of family members group-sharing in a hallucination born out of an extreme closeness I am not that inclined to believe. It runs counter to what I've experienced and i think to what most people have experienced.

I understand this distinction, and stories aren't evidence, they are eyewitness testimony.
In other words, they are the report of someone's first hand experience, not something you or I can physically examine.

I don't think you do understand the distinction, eye-witness reports/testimonies are evidence as are physical artifacts, they are simply different types of evidence.

Evidence for ghosts might consist of a piece of ectoplasm left by the ghost that you or I could examine and test, in the way that alleged bigfoot hair is presented from time to time for testing.

Physical evidence always helps yes.

Well, I'm not out to poke holes in anyone's belief system as some kind of pastime or chess-like intellectual excercize.

Me neither, truth is ultimately what I am after, but if i can challange people while being challanged in the process and force people to inspect their beliefs and methods as they force me to inspect mine then it just makes it all the more worth while and engaging for me.

In the case of ghosts, as with a few other "paranormal" subjects, it's clear that the average person is completely uninformed about any possible neurological explanation. They never even s in trying to sort the experience out.

I would actually take issue with this; the average person is more than aware of hallucinations and what they are; pretty much regardless of race, religion or cultural background. And of course many people will have reference points to go back to when they have had a hallucination as prehaps of a result of tiredness or ingestion of hallucinogens or illness.
While most people wouldn't (i agree) have such indepth knowledge of the various terminology and types of hallucinations. I would still credit most people on a logical and instinctual level to differentiate between a hallucination and something which they feel has an external reality. Also don't forget that it isn't easy for anyone to say 'oh i saw a ghost' and if they do say it id imagine that theyd be inclined to make sure they were positive that they did see something that was external to their own imagination.
Its healthy to doubt peoples judgment but it does you no favours to reject everyones abillity to judge outright.

In fact though, all individual visual sightings of ghosts are all perfectly consistent with what you'd expect to find in the hallucinations of simple-partial seizures, fatigue hallucinations, auto-suggestive hallucinations, and hallucinations from serious organic brain problems like Multiple Sclerosis or brain tumors.

All individual visual sightings most definitely arnt perfectly consistant with hallucinations, and haven't been for a very long time. Hallucinations still do not account for group sightings and I've yet to hear a convincing argument for mass hallucinations.
Hallucinations also do not persuade me too believe that familys without prior knowledge of a ghost in a particular house would experience the same things as a previous family. I think that is starting to move beyond the realms of simple coincidence.
We also in this thread haven't touched upon poltergeist activity a great deal; when furniture is moved and objects thrown round the room it is even harder still to rely on the 'hallucination' explanation. There is also of course video taped evidence, which while there is always the chance of a hoax, i have seen enough footage of familys with in-house hauntings with such visceral and natural responses, (especially from children) for me to be satiified that authentic footage exists.
When a explanation doesn't fit its time to start looking for another one...

I also hope I made my point about the assumption that, even within the paranormal range of explanations, the fact that everyone jumps to the conclusion that "ghosts" are the spirits of dead people makes the issue suspect.

I think a good half of people whove seen ghosts would also go with the 'human imprint' idea, but i think the main and most important thing to remember is that they were sure enough that it wasnt a hallucination to call it one.

 

[Overdose]

Coincidently I am actually from york and know the story of the marching romans well, my grandmother even knew the man in question.
The thing that always marked out the story in my mind was the fact he saw the romans marching but only from the knees up. Which was latter of course attributed to the fact that the roman road at that time would have been much further down into the ground.

 

[SGT]

Coincidently I am actually from york and know the story of the marching romans well, my grandmother even knew the man in question.
The thing that always marked out the story in my mind was the fact he saw the romans marching but only from the knees up. Which was latter of course attributed to the fact that the roman road at that time would have been much further down into the ground.

From the interview whose link zoobieshoe provided, when he saw the apparition the road had already been excavated and according to him it is why he could not see the soldiers from the knee down.
The guy was doing a very hard work. Since zoobieshoe is the most knowledgeable of us in this subject, I ask if the exertion could have caused a hallucination?

 

[fileen]

Ive been from toronto to ottawa to calgary. I have seen loads of brain doctors. there are no options left. I am sure my doctor is aware of epilepsy, but I wil question her on the subject. I took other brain tests as well. MRI and another where they inject you all up with stuff. to be honest I am really quite sick of being annalyzed. I've learned to deal with and not be ashamed of who I am. I have told so many doctors what I have seen. I wish I had a copy of my files there are bound to be novels of stuff. right now I am healthy and the happiest I think I've been in a long time. my family and friends love and accept me for who I am.

years ago (before I was born) my aunt (we will call her kendal) lived in a house near to where I live now (and have lived most of my life) she moved away to another province, and was not getting along with my mother. I had little to no contact with her, and my family did not speak of her. if there was talk of her it was about the conflict between her and the rest of my family. I still don't know her very well. a few years ago she was still in conflict and while with another aunt (we will call her sally) we went to visit a friend who currently lives in the house my aunt kendal lived in (I had no knowledge of this). the house was easily one of the creepiest places I have ever been. I hallucinated like crazy. I actually had to leave. I sat outside on the front lawn. on my way out as I grabbed my shoes from the mud room I remember very clearly seeing a little boy. he never looked at me or said a word but I could feel him. it was very vivid and very scary. I never even put my shoes on. just recently I have been seeking a relationship with my aunt kendal. my family has pretty much forgiven her by now, but she still lives very far away and there is little communication. I went out last summer to spend a month with her and see some doctors down there when we got talking about my hallucinations and some of the things I have seen. the little boy is one of the ones who has always stuck to me. when I told my aunt about him she freaked out. she didnt know for sure but she thought that perhaps it may have been the house she had lived in and believed to be very haunted. she told me she had seen the same boy in the same place. along with other ghosts that I don't recall specificly. the creepiest part was when we called back home and were verified that it was the same house. my aunt is convinced I see ghosts.
other strange things happened in that house as well. furniture would move, but not at night when everyone was sleeping, but right there in front of people, sometimes a chair would move with someone sitting on it. things would go missing and turn up in impossible places. one night an enormous amount of stray cats just showed up and howled outside the back door. she would be vacuuming and the vacuum would just stop working, or the volume on the television would go up and down. I have no proof of any of this but apparently when they yelled at the invisible pranker the trouble would stop. the vacuum would run again or the television would go back to its normal volume level. the entire family along with some people who had visited there are certain it was ghosts. I personally have my doubts. I think if strange things begin to happen with a persons appliances it could cause them to hallucinate and see "ghosts" its true that the boy I saw fit perfect with her description of the boy along with my uncles and their son. my aunt heard my story first but my uncle and cousin had no idea I had even been in the house. perhaps there are perfectly simple environmental reasons for the vacuum and the television to act up. I think the family may have elaborated. again I can't say for sure, but there's no way I would go back there. that boy gave me chills right down into my soul. I am certain I would see something weather there or not based on my past experiences with the place. but yes this is one situation where I have seen something other people have seen before me. there's no way I would have heard about that story from my aunt.

 

[zoobyshoe]

delusional:
I see no reason why this term couldn't be used about hallucinations .

The reason you cannot use delusion to refer to hallucination is simply because they are two different phenomena. The two words refer to two separate things. You can't use the word delulsion to refer to an hallucination for the same reason you can't use the word horse to refer to a cow.

A person that experiences hallucinations that someone is chasing them could be called delusional (As in the case of Jhonny Nash).

Hallucinations can lead to delusions, and often do, but they are still two separate concepts. Horses and cow are frequently found in the same vicinity, but that doesn't make it OK to start using the word cow to refer to a horse.

That's an interesting read Zoobyshoe, historically, the Romans are supposed to have been small in stature.

His first hand account is much more interesting than the one at the York Ghost site. I like all the details about his psychological reaction, how he was afraid what would happen if one of them happened to see him, his constant references to where he was standing on the ladder.

Schizophrenia often occurs for a time after severe depression, but is usually diagnosable.

Where did you get this notion?

 

[fileen]

lots of doctors use the word dilusion to describe a hullucination. they tend to use both words for the same thing
Ive never heard of schizophrenia occurring after depression. I have also never heard of schizophrenia being easy to diagnose. schizophrenia is something you are born with now I have heard of certain things bringing it out. perhaps some antidepressants can bring out schizophrenia, I don't know, but I know it is hereditary. a person who doesn't have it can't just randomly get it. the brain is predisposed to it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This in a nutshell i think is the motivation for your entire position, and it further confirms my long held opinion that peoples beliefs are almost soley guided by their personal experiences.

My experience that seeing is not believing is not only true in my case. It is a general truth about all human experience: we can't always automatically rely on what our senses tell us. I am not projecting a personal experience onto everyone else as you suggest. Anyone might hallucinate.

I can tell you that I've had experiences of hauntings and am close to a good number of people (mostly family) who have experienced similar things which cannot be simply attributed to hallucinations.

You are simply asserting that they can't be without explaining why they can't be. All I get from that is that you are very much disinclined to consider them in that light.

I also should finally say in relation to that quote that i have noticed in a lot of these types of threads that you have been following the hallucination explanation quite passionately.

My "passion" is simply a bug up my behind in reaction to the resistance I get to this, very good and reasonable, first option that should be considered in all these stories.

i also sometimes feel that you are insisting that this is the only possible explanation and none else should be considered.

I am only insistant that it is the first, logical thing to examine for. Hallucinations are a fact. Ghosts haven't ever been proven.

As i said earlier i think the odds of more than one person having the same hallucination would be so astronomical as to be verging on the impossible.

If, in fact, they are seeing exactly the same thing. I have informally explored some two person stories and dscovered they weren't actually both seeing the same thing.

Assuming that is that there is enough motivation to conclude that it would be agaisnt their best interests to lie about the whole event of course.

I never assume anyone is lying. Authentic liars are actually extremely rare in my experience.

Do you have a link for this? I am interested to know the full story and exactly how extreme the difference were between what the family members saw.

No, they were both TV programs. One was interviews with the actual family on which the book and film The Amityville Horror was loosly based. The other was an entirely different family somewhere in the midwest.

But the idea of family members group-sharing in a hallucination born out of an extreme closeness I am not that inclined to believe. It runs counter to what I've experienced and i think to what most people have experienced.

You've got to get out more, Overdose. Group dynamics like this happen all the time. This is how cult leaders get people to drink poison Kool-aid.

I don't think you do understand the distinction, eye-witness reports/testimonies are evidence as are physical artifacts, they are simply different types of evidence.

Are you speaking in legal terms, or what?

Me neither, truth is ultimately what I am after, but if i can challange people while being challanged in the process and force people to inspect their beliefs and methods as they force me to inspect mine then it just makes it all the more worth while and engaging for me.

I'm not interested in challenging anyones beliefs for the sake of making things interesting. I only call things into question when I happen to know of a good reason they should be questioned. Things are "interesting" enough as they are.

I would actually take issue with this; the average person is more than aware of hallucinations and what they are

People are not "more than aware" at all. They are simply familiar with the basic concept. The average person has no conception of what might be going on in the brain to cause them.

I would still credit most people on a logical and instinctual level to differentiate between a hallucination and something which they feel has an external reality.

Absolutely not. The schizophrenic guy who lives here in my building has assured me on several occasions that the voices he hears are the utterances of completely real people. The two guys who invaded my room during my sleep paralysis were so obviously real to me that it didn't occur to me to question their reality until after they suddenly vanished. Whether or not a person can distinguish hallucination from reality seems to be a hit or miss thing. Your assumption that everyone has a built in hallucination detector is completely wrong.

Also don't forget that it isn't easy for anyone to say 'oh i saw a ghost' and if they do say it id imagine that theyd be inclined to make sure they were positive that they did see something that was external to their own imagination.

Their being positive about it bears no relation to it's authenticity. Halucinations often seem completely real. We just can't separate hallucination from reality according to how real it seemed to the experiencer. That particular screening method isn't reliable.

Its healthy to doubt peoples judgment but it does you no favours to reject everyones abillity to judge outright.

It is not the kind of thing that can be settled by people's judgements about how real they thought it was. That is simply the fact of hallucinations. The only way to settle the issue to general satisfaction would be to find a constant, non-disappearing ghost to study.

All individual visual sightings most definitely arnt perfectly consistant with hallucinations, and haven't been for a very long time.

I don't see why not.

Hallucinations still do not account for group sightings and I've yet to hear a convincing argument for mass hallucinations.

I haven't ever heard of a group sighting of a ghost.

Hallucinations also do not persuade me too believe that familys without prior knowledge of a ghost in a particular house would experience the same things as a previous family.

It depends on what the "same things" are.

We also in this thread haven't touched upon poltergeist activity a great deal

Poltergeists are a whole different ball of wax. PF Mentor Evo has some amazing poltergeist stories, and I have read quite a few other reports on the net. These seem to be distincly different from ghost sightings.

I think a good half of people whove seen ghosts would also go with the 'human imprint' idea, but i think the main and most important thing to remember is that they were sure enough that it wasnt a hallucination to call it one.

Even within the paranormal context there is no good reason to call them one thing or another. How do you sense the difference between the spirit of a dead person and a visitation from someone who has slipped through time? Or a pooka excercizing its gleams and glamours, for that matter?

Your certainly that people can tell the difference between hallucination and reality is unfounded, and just can't be used as an argument in favor of ghosts. There may, in fact, be something paranormal going on in some of these cases but the way to get to it isn't by assessing how sure the person is of what they saw.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Please provide links to medical websites whenever possible. There is a lot of information bantered about here that could easily be confirmed or refuted.

Also, Tandy is not qualified to make the claims that he does - He's a computer scientist. And I have never found a good source that confirms his claims. As you might recall, we tried.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Please provide links to medical websites whenever possible. There is a lot of information bantered about here that could easily be confirmed or refuted.

What do you want clarified?

Also, Tandy is not qualified to make the claims that he does - He's a computer scientist. And I have never found a good source that confirms his claims. As you might recall, we tried.

Tandy isn't making claims. He has a hypothesis or theory: spooky place + infrasound = ghost.

None of us wanted to spring the $35.00 for the Nasa paper. We read only abstracts of the other papers, without reading the whole of any, except the one Evo found online.

 

[SGT]

Please provide links to medical websites whenever possible. There is a lot of information bantered about here that could easily be confirmed or refuted.

Also, Tandy is not qualified to make the claims that he does - He's a computer scientist. And I have never found a good source that confirms his claims. As you might recall, we tried.

http://phoenix.herts.ac.uk/PWRU/RWhomepage.html and the Edinburgh vaults.
Do you think he is qualified or only believers are?

 

[PIT2]

Heres another interesting ghost tale:

http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2005/04/classic_case_psychi.html

Described is a case where a man is arrested and claims to be possessed by the ghost of an old woman, who forces him to do certain things.

Warning of imminent possession was a fog which the patient would see drifting towards him, settling initially on his chest and making him breathless, then entering his body through his nose and mouth, making him retch and wheeze as he resisted, and taking control of his whole body, including his voice. There was no hyperventilation or other features suggestive of a panic attack. There was no history of antecedent events, conflicts or stresses. While possessed, lasting from half an hour to several days, the patient was aware of his surroundings through all senses, although often blunted as though through a haze. He lost motor control, but retained awareness of emotions, remembering fear, anger and guilt. He would 'struggle' mentally to prevent his body's actions, usually unsuccessfully. He experienced command hallucinations, and occasionally the ghost's voice commented on his actions to unheard others. Even when not possessed, he thought the spirit could listen to his thoughts, punishing him if he told people about her. He remembered most events while possessed.

Interestingly enough, while he was in jail, the following happened:

We were disturbed by a telephone call from the prison chaplain who described seeing the ghost possesses the patient in prison, seeing a descending cloud and an impression of a face alarmingly like a description of the dead woman given to us by the patient, of which the chaplain denied prior knowledge. Similar reports came from frightened cellmates. He and our hospital chaplain concurred on genuine possession.

Heres the story in short:

BACKGROUND. An Indian man now in Britain explained his criminal behaviour as episodic ghost possession. Traditional exorcisms failed to help. METHOD. A 'Western' diagnosis of dissociative state or paranoid schizophrenia was made. Treatment commenced using trifluoperazine and clopenthixol. RESULTS. The patient underwent remission during neuroleptic treatment, despite previous evidence of genuine possession. CONCLUSIONS. Many cultures give rise to apparently genuine cases of ghost possession. Neuroleptics may relieve symptoms of exorcism- resistant possession.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/165/3/386

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7994512

Its interesting that other people also witnessed this fog/cloud.
What kind of natural phenomenom causes a cloud to descend upon someones body?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Its interesting that other people also witnessed this fog/cloud.

Yes, no, maybe. There is something very odd about the whole article: the authors are obviously and strangely dancing around the fact that the case might make Indian Culture seem superstition ridden, as it often does when things like this are reported. It is rather like they are torn between telling this howlingly funny story of the superstitions they encountered in India to the folks back home, but at the same tme, not wanting to offend any Indians involved who might hear of their report. The carefully worded conclusion: "Many cultures give rise to apparently genuine cases of ghost possession. Neuroleptics may relieve symptoms of excorcism-resistent possession," could not possibly be taken at face value by their fellow British Psychiatrists but as a tongue-in-cheek suggestion as to how to handle Native populations anywhere who firmly believe a psychiatric condition is a manifestation of paranormal phenomena: "Yes, it's ghost possession, Apu, but our Western Medication will remove your suseptibility to ghost possession!"

I looked up the list of other articles by one of the authors of this one, and they're all extremely technical, pretty run of the mill, straightforward psychiatric stuff. (I didn't check the other guy, though.) In other words, this doesn't seem to be a Shelrake type character who's on the verge of giving up Psychiatry and going into the Neuroleptic Excorcism business, rather, someone who's trying to relate an outrageous story without hurting the feelings of anyone involved.

Did the doctors believe the Chaplain and other prisoners? I tend to think not. Since this article is written for other psychiatrists, not the general public, I think the part about the chaplain and prisoners seeing the fog would be understood to be some kind informal hypnotic suggestion planted among the religious chaplain and superstitious inmates by the rumors that must have been going around about the possessed prisoner.

It is very hard for me to believe that The British Journal of Psychiatry would print the article for its readership of psychiatrists unless it were understood by their editors to be what I suggest.

However, I could be completely wrong: maybe the two authors ended up fully convinced of ghost possession, and the BrJPsy said "This story is just so strange, we have to print it!" I would really like to see the letters to the editor about it in the next issue, if they have such a feature in that journal.

That said, I would like to have had a first hand account from the chaplain of what he saw, as well as first hand accounts from the other inmates. As with the Plumber and the Roman soldiers, the first hand account is almost always much more revealing.

 

[PIT2]

It is rather like they are torn between telling this howlingly funny story of the superstitions they encountered in India to the folks back home, but at the same tme, not wanting to offend any Indians involved who might hear of their report.

Just for ur information. Everything in the report occurred in Britain. The prison was also in Britain. I don't know whether the people in the british jail had similar superstitions as the possessed man.

These parts were written in the article:

He and our hospital chaplain concurred on genuine possession. This is an acceptable belief within pastoral counselling (Issacs, 1987).


He admitted the charges, but claimed that his behaviour was under control of a ghost. Prison staff considered him to be malingering.

The reason i thought a natural phenomenom would be more likely, is because multiple people claim to have seen this fog.

 

[Evo]

http://phoenix.herts.ac.uk/PWRU/RWhomepage.html is a psychologist that does research into the paranormal. He believes that infrasounds along with air drafts are responsible for many of the alleged ghost phenomena, <snip>Do you think he is qualified or only believers are?

He is a psychologist investigating the paranormal with what appears to be a preformed mindset to discredit. That's fine, although an open mind is nice. I would take anything he says with that in mind, just as I would question the "results' of a firm believer in the paranormal.

The famous Haunted Gallery at Hampton Court Palace and the Edinburgh vaults.

This doesn't actually conclude anything, all it basically says is that "But Dr Wiseman's team said the experiences could be simply explained by the gallery's numerous concealed doors.

These elderly exits are far from draught-proof and the combination of air currents which they let in cause sudden changes in the room's temperature." Ok, let's see some examples where a door was opened (and the doors aren't being noticed as opening) in the specific locations of the sightings and the readings from the equipment that showed the instant temperature drop. It sounds like a reasonable explanation, let's see the actual information.

It gets worse...here they say "Column of cold air

In two particular spots, the temperature of the gallery plummeted by up to 2C.

"You do, literally, walk into a column of cold air sometimes," said Dr Wiseman. "It's possible that people are misattributing normal phenomena.

"If you suddenly feel cold, and you're in a haunted place, that might bring on a sense of fear and a more scary experience." DUH. He doesn't say what the scientific explanation is of this "normal phenomena" he mentions. I'm sure it is some form of natural phenomena, but isn't he supposed to be solving this? This is all handwaving, nothing that hasn't all been said before. Apparently he can't explain it either.

 

[SGT]

He is a psychologist investigating the paranormal with what appears to be a preformed mindset to discredit. That's fine, although an open mind is nice. I would take anything he says with that in mind, just as I would question the "results' of a firm believer in the paranormal.

This doesn't actually conclude anything, all it basically says is that "But Dr Wiseman's team said the experiences could be simply explained by the gallery's numerous concealed doors.

Agreed! Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is impossible to prove the phenomena are not the result of ghost activity, but the more natural explanations are found, the less likely is the ghost hypothesis.

These elderly exits are far from draught-proof and the combination of air currents which they let in cause sudden changes in the room's temperature." Ok, let's see some examples where a door was opened (and the doors aren't being noticed as opening) in the specific locations of the sightings and the readings from the equipment that showed the instant temperature drop. It sounds like a reasonable explanation, let's see the actual information.

It gets worse...here they say "Column of cold air

In two particular spots, the temperature of the gallery plummeted by up to 2C.

"You do, literally, walk into a column of cold air sometimes," said Dr Wiseman. "It's possible that people are misattributing normal phenomena.

"If you suddenly feel cold, and you're in a haunted place, that might bring on a sense of fear and a more scary experience." DUH. He doesn't say what the scientific explanation is of this "normal phenomena" he mentions. I'm sure it is some form of natural phenomena, but isn't he supposed to be solving this? This is all handwaving, nothing that hasn't all been said before. Apparently he can't explain it either.

Dr Wiseman is a psychologist. We cannot ask him to give physical explanations of those phenomena. I am sure people with knowledge of physics could find the origin of the anomalies if they went to the local.

 

[Evo]

Someone needs to do a better job at this. There is a new "hauntings" show on the travel channel that is just awful. A group of flakes that are firm believers go into supposedly haunted places and predictably every sound and movement is a "spirit". I can't even sit through the whole thing, it's that bad.

Ok, SGT, zooby, Ivan, what do you say we all form a team and have people pay us to go out and investigate spooky places?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Do you think he is qualified or only believers are?

Did I say anything about believers being qualified to make a scientific determination?

Have the authors cited been published in mainstream journals wrt this subject?

As for Tandy, he makes claims supported nowhere by experimental evidence. He makes the specific claim that eyeballs rattle at 19.2 Hz, and this is responsible for ghost phenomenon. In fact nothing is found to support this claim.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What do you want clarified?

This was in reference to definitions. When we are dealing with specific medical defintions, technical references should be used. No one here is an expert.

Also, fileen claims that the words hallucination, and delusion, are often used interchagebly. This statement should be supported with a link esp in light of the disagreement.

Tandy isn't making claims. He has a hypothesis or theory: spooky place + infrasound = ghost.

He specially claims this eye resonance, and that this induces many so called ghost observations. He was even making a machine which, to no surprise, has never been seen or used to show that any truth exists in any of these claims.

None of us wanted to spring the $35.00 for the Nasa paper. We read only abstracts of the other papers, without reading the whole of any, except the one Evo found online.

As I recall, I contacted NASA and found no confirmation of his statements. I will have to review.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Just for ur information. Everything in the report occurred in Britain. The prison was also in Britain. I don't know whether the people in the british jail had similar superstitions as the possessed man.

Yes, I believe you're right. The man's arrest and examination by the two Doctors must have taken place in Britain. The abstract says: "An Indian man now in Britain..."

This still leaves me confused about the extent to which the authors are actually persuaded that some ghost possessions are "apparently genuine" and the extent to which they might be tipping their colleages off to a way of handling transplants from the Indian subcontinent and other cultures.

The reason i thought a natural phenomenom would be more likely, is because multiple people claim to have seen this fog.

Multiple witnesses makes it much more interesting, yes. This is where it would be nice to have expanded, detailed accounts from the chaplain and other inmates to read. It might turn out that this sighting of a fog falls apart when you hear the details, or it might turn out it gets even more vivid and realistic sounding, as with the plumber.

 

[Overdose]

My experience that seeing is not believing is not only true in my case. It is a general truth about all human experience: we can't always automatically rely on what our senses tell us. I am not projecting a personal experience onto everyone else as you suggest. Anyone might hallucinate.

As I've said its a point youve made well, but it unfortunately doesn't go far enough to begin to provide complete and coherent answers to what people are experiencing and reporting.

You are simply asserting that they can't be without explaining why they can't be. All I get from that is that you are very much disinclined to consider them in that light.

They can't be, or rather or so unlikely to be (hallucinations) that i see very good reason to purpuse other answers. I've gone into detail in previous posts about specific cases, namely those where separate people see the same ghost in the same house, offen without ever knowing or having been in contact with the person who witnessed the ghost before them.

My "passion" is simply a bug up my behind in reaction to the resistance I get to this, very good and reasonable, first option that should be considered in all these stories.

Hey i agree, but it isn't the only answer out there, and in my case it is not as if the possiblity of hallucination hasnt been considered.

I am only insistant that it is the first, logical thing to examine for. Hallucinations are a fact. Ghosts haven't ever been proven.

Again i agree, but what you are actually doing in practice is offering it up
as the only explanation, even when the explanation is being stretched to its seams just to fit at times.

If, in fact, they are seeing exactly the same thing. I have informally explored some two person stories and dscovered they weren't actually both seeing the same thing.

How big was the disparity between what they saw in these cases?

I never assume anyone is lying. Authentic liars are actually extremely rare in my experience.

Well its another possibility to consider in my opinion just as are hallucinations.

You've got to get out more, Overdose. Group dynamics like this happen all the time. This is how cult leaders get people to drink poison Kool-aid.

Youre trying to compare apples and oranges, there's a distinct difference between getting someone to to take part in something weird and agaisnt their best interests and a mutal group hallucination.

Are you speaking in legal terms, or what?

The general everyday kind.

I'm not interested in challenging anyones beliefs for the sake of making things interesting. I only call things into question when I happen to know of a good reason they should be questioned.

But what if people have already considered your line of reasoning and still don't accept it? at what point do you hang up your hat and move on? (im still trying to wrestle with this one myself btw)

People are not "more than aware" at all. They are simply familiar with the basic concept. The average person has no conception of what might be going on in the brain to cause them.

They don't need to be aware of the causal triggers in the brain to recognise the effect, i don't in great detail understand what happens neurologically in the brain when i get tired but i immeditately recognise when i am tired.

Absolutely not. The schizophrenic guy who lives here in my building has assured me on several occasions that the voices he hears are the utterances of completely real people.

Prehaps they are for all we know, why do believe you have the monopoly on the truth of his experiences?

The two guys who invaded my room during my sleep paralysis were so obviously real to me that it didn't occur to me to question their reality until after they suddenly vanished.

Ive never had sleep paralysis so i have no personal experience of something like that, I've heard some people claim they are hallucinations and others who are convinced their experiences have some kind of external reality. I am still sitting on the fence personally i can't say i lean either way, I am open to both view points.

Whether or not a person can distinguish hallucination from reality seems to be a hit or miss thing.

Says who? how are we to sort out the hits from the misses? I am guessing the misses would be conclusions people have reached that don't fall inline with your own conclusions that you reached in regards to your sleep paralysis experience?

Your assumption that everyone has a built in hallucination detector is completely wrong.

Im not saying everyone does, I am saying that most people have had hallucinations in whatever form by early adulthood and therefore are able to recognise them and separate them from reality, or at the very least have a good shot at doing so.

Their being positive about it bears no relation to it's authenticity.

I think it definitely leans in favour authenticity, rather than away from it.

It is not the kind of thing that can be settled by people's judgements about how real they thought it was. That is simply the fact of hallucinations. The only way to settle the issue to general satisfaction would be to find a constant, non-disappearing ghost to study.

I don't think the nature of ghosts is going to change much from what they are, so I am not sure youre going to find a case that will ever completely satisfy you.

I haven't ever heard of a group sighting of a ghost.

Ivan posted up a police report of a group sighting a while back...i'll do a search for it and post it back in the thread.

Poltergeists are a whole different ball of wax. PF Mentor Evo has some amazing poltergeist stories, and I have read quite a few other reports on the net. These seem to be distincly different from ghost sightings.

It does seem to be rare to get a sighting along with poltergeist activity together in the same location; it has been known to happen but it isn't that common.

How do you sense the difference between the spirit of a dead person and a visitation from someone who has slipped through time?

whether contact is possible with the ghost would be a good place to start.
(also note i never suggested that ghosts were people who have slipped through time, rather they might be the image or imprint of pre-existing people, being no more conscious and aware than a reel of film showing a person walking down a street).

Or a pooka excercizing its gleams and glamours, for that matter?

Ive no idea what a pooka is so you'll have to explain it for me.

Your certainly that people can tell the difference between hallucination and reality is unfounded

As is your certainly that people are mentaly unequiped to ever be able to distingusih and tell the difference.

There may, in fact, be something paranormal going on in some of these cases but the way to get to it isn't by assessing how sure the person is of what they saw.

I think it absolutely hinges on it, if they arnt sure atall of what they saw and state now and again, that it might have been some reflections off the tv or the next door neighbour walking past the window etc. then that persons story i would say to most people minds would loose a great deal of credibility and weight.

 

[zoobyshoe]

He specially claims this eye resonance, and that this induces many so called ghost observations.

No, I don't think you can find this stated by him in the form or spirit of a "claim" the way you are proposing. He has a hypothesis or theory that spooky place + infrasound = ghost. He is not claiming this accounts for all ghosts. He is simply extrapolating fom his own experience with the fan in his shop and saying the same thing might well be happening in other cases.

He was even making a machine which, to no surprise, has never been seen or used to show that any truth exists in any of these claims.

Meaning you are certain his machine must not have worked.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ok, SGT, zooby, Ivan, what do you say we all form a team and have people pay us to go out and investigate spooky places?

Maybe you could bring your poltergeist with you, and we could set up fights with other poltergeists! We could charge SO MUCH for people to see that!