Are Ghosts a Global Phenomenon Beyond Mythology?

[Evo]

Here is a link to some paranormal researchers that are in my town. I heard about them watching documentaries on the Discovery Channel, etc... They're highly rated in the "paranormal" research field.

Interesting photos if you guys want to take a look. Of course they could have been faked, they could be coincidence, but I thought some of you might be interested in looking at them.

They are a non-profit group.

http://www.millersparanormalresearch.com

 

[SGT]

He told his mother about it the night after he experienced this. The idea that both his mother and he developed a false memory falls under the term 'coincidence'.

Also, that he instantly developed a false memory of his grandfather dying at the same time his grandfather actually did die and before he was aware of him dying, is also coincidence.

There is a phenomenon called déja vu. After experiencing something you have the sensation of having had this experience before. For instance, you go to a place for the first time and yet you feel like you have already been there.
Mystics say that you have been there in a former life. Scientists say that your brain made a wrong connection. Instead of sending the information to the recent memory, it sends to the ancient memories, so the recent experience feels like an old one.
It could be that hearing the news of is grandfather passing, his brain could create a sensation of already knowing that.
Before Ivan starts accusing me, let me say that this is only a hypothesis. I am not saying this is what happened, only that it is an alternative explanation.

 

[zoobyshoe]

He told his mother about it the night after he experienced this.

What was his mother's account of the whole thing? Did they interview her separately from him, or were they interviewed at the same time?

 

[zoobyshoe]

There is a phenomenon called déja vu. After experiencing something you have the sensation of having had this experience before. For instance, you go to a place for the first time and yet you feel like you have already been there.
Mystics say that you have been there in a former life. Scientists say that your brain made a wrong connection. Instead of sending the information to the recent memory, it sends to the ancient memories, so the recent experience feels like an old one.

The Deja Vu is probably the most common simple partial seizure. The experience is caused by seizure activity in a part of the brain called the hippocampus (and surrounding tissue) which is a vital area in all things pertaining to memory. The seizure activity causes the hippocampus to generate a kind of supercharged version of the physiological reaction a person normally has to seeing something familiar, and this unbelievably strong , but false, reaction becomes applied to whatever the person is looking at or thinkng about.

Simple Partial Seizures : Epilepsy.com
Address:http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/seizure_simplepartial.html

People who have a lot of deja vus often come to believe they can tell the future. This is because, during the course of the day we are quite frequently speculating about what is going to happen next; when a deja vu hits during one of these speculations, the speculation takes on a feeling of such strong and solid familiarity that you become convinced you know what is going to happen next. In fact, though, what you thought was going to happen almost never actually does happen. You're right maybe 5% of the time. (The times you aren't right, you may just have another deja vu which makes the actual outcome seem unbelievably familiar. You say to yourself, "I knew I knew what was going to happen next I just forgot the details!")

Anyway, the hypothesis about short term memories getting accidently stored in long term memory, is bogus. It is simply a matter of the organ that governs the feeling of familiarity being grossly overstimulated by seizure activity. This has been proven by direct EEG readings from the hippocampus by means of depth implanted electrodes while the patient is reporting the Deja Vu experience. They could reverse it as well: by sending electrical stimulation down the electrodes into the hippocampus they could induce the deja vu experience.
Abstract: The Anatomical Origins of Deja Vu and vivid `memories' in Human Temporal Lobe Epilepsy

Entrez PubMed
Address:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8149215&dopt=Abstract



A deja vu might induce a kind of false memory in the way you suggested, but false memories are a phenomena unto themselves that don't require a deja vu to be put in place. They are more a hypnotic phenomenon, and can be set up either by another person or through some process of spontaneous auto-hypnosis that isn't deliberate. False memories can be unbelievably elaborate and indistinguishable from real memories in quality. The only way you can expose a false memory is if it involves something you can prove can't have happened.

 

[SGT]

The Deja Vu is probably the most common simple partial seizure. The experience is caused by seizure activity in a part of the brain called the hippocampus (and surrounding tissue) which is a vital area in all things pertaining to memory. The seizure activity causes the hippocampus to generate a kind of supercharged version of the physiological reaction a person normally has to seeing something familiar, and this unbelievably strong , but false, reaction becomes applied to whatever the person is looking at or thinkng about.

Simple Partial Seizures : Epilepsy.com
Address:http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/seizure_simplepartial.html

People who have a lot of deja vus often come to believe they can tell the future. This is because, during the course of the day we are quite frequently speculating about what is going to happen next; when a deja vu hits during one of these speculations, the speculation takes on a feeling of such strong and solid familiarity that you become convinced you know what is going to happen next. In fact, though, what you thought was going to happen almost never actually does happen. You're right maybe 5% of the time. (The times you aren't right, you may just have another deja vu which makes the actual outcome seem unbelievably familiar. You say to yourself, "I knew I knew what was going to happen next I just forgot the details!")

Anyway, the hypothesis about short term memories getting accidently stored in long term memory, is bogus. It is simply a matter of the organ that governs the feeling of familiarity being grossly overstimulated by seizure activity. This has been proven by direct EEG readings from the hippocampus by means of depth implanted electrodes while the patient is reporting the Deja Vu experience. They could reverse it as well: by sending electrical stimulation down the electrodes into the hippocampus they could induce the deja vu experience.
Abstract: The Anatomical Origins of Deja Vu and vivid `memories' in Human Temporal Lobe Epilepsy

Entrez PubMed
Address:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8149215&dopt=Abstract



A deja vu might induce a kind of false memory in the way you suggested, but false memories are a phenomena unto themselves that don't require a deja vu to be put in place. They are more a hypnotic phenomenon, and can be set up either by another person or through some process of spontaneous auto-hypnosis that isn't deliberate. False memories can be unbelievably elaborate and indistinguishable from real memories in quality. The only way you can expose a false memory is if it involves something you can prove can't have happened.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Ultimâ]

I'm sure you've all heard about the person in York who was in the basement of a bar when he saw a roman legion march past. He described a piece of equipment that the leader was carrying (I can't remember what), but was riduculed by historians and archaeologists as no one had ever seen such an item. But later, some excavation was done and it was discovered that the Romans 'Northen Road' actually passed through the spot, and the described item was found (amongst other things). I'd call this very strong proof.

I personally believe ghosts exist. I think to some extent you have to be at the right place at the right time and in a certain state of mind to see them though.

 

[zoobyshoe]

He described a piece of equipment that the leader was carrying (I can't remember what), but was riduculed by historians and archaeologists as no one had ever seen such an item.

In a case like this I would want to know the exact identity of the historians and archaeologists who ridiculed the "piece of equipment" and also if that ridicule is on record in any form dated prior to the discovery that thing actually exists. I would also investigate whether or not any record of the story of seeing that equipment in the apparition can be found that predates the actual discovery. In other words, we have to rule out that the man reporting it didn't start telling this whole story about the vision only after the discovery of the artifact.

If all that were to check out, then the other problem is that museums are packed full of things in storage no one has properly cataloged or described. The man with the vision might have seen that generally unknown, but actually previously discovered, equipment while poking through a museum storage, forgot about it, and unconsciously incorporated it into his vision. We would have to do some research into what the man with the vision actually did already know about the Roman occupation of GB and whether or not there is, in fact, any mention of that equipment in any of those sources which he could have been exposed to but forgotten about.

 

[Curious3141]

In a case like this I would want to know the exact identity of the historians and archaeologists who ridiculed the "piece of equipment" and also if that ridicule is on record in any form dated prior to the discovery that thing actually exists. I would also investigate whether or not any record of the story of seeing that equipment in the apparition can be found that predates the actual discovery. In other words, we have to rule out that the man reporting it didn't start telling this whole story about the vision only after the discovery of the artifact.

If all that were to check out, then the other problem is that museums are packed full of things in storage no one has properly cataloged or described. The man with the vision might have seen that generally unknown, but actually previously discovered, equipment while poking through a museum storage, forgot about it, and unconsciously incorporated it into his vision. We would have to do some research into what the man with the vision actually did already know about the Roman occupation of GB and whether or not there is, in fact, any mention of that equipment in any of those sources which he could have been exposed to but forgotten about.

Here is the story :

The Treasurers House



The Treasurer's House is a large stone-built house in the centre of York, next to York Minster. Its original purpose was as an administration centre for the Minster and to house the regalia and valuables, hence the name. The building had a change of ownership in the nineteenth century, and in the twentieth century, was bought by the department of the environment, now the National Trust.



The Treasurers House is home to the most famous ghost story in York - In 1953 work was being carried out in the cellars by a man named Harry Martindale, an apprentice plumber. He was working alone in the cellar when heard the sound of a horn nearby and assumed it to be outside, a short while later he heard the sound again, this time much closer, seemingly in the cellar itself, Harry looked around and was shocked by what he saw. A horse stepped into view through the wall of the cellar, and Harry fell off his ladder in shock. On the horses back was a man, helmeted and armoured in what appeared to be the style of a Roman soldier. As the horse and rider walked across the cellar, they were followed by a column of soldiers, all helmeted and wearing a red kilt and carrying round shields and dressed in rough green tunics, carrying short swords or spears. One soldier carried a long trumpet, which looked very battered and worn instrument. This was obviously the source of the noise heard moments earlier. Harry was now backed into the corner of the room, totally taken aback by what he was seeing, they were so real that he could have reached out and touched them. He noticed that the bottom of their legs were all missing and he could only see from the knee upwards. When they reached the hole he had dug to install a heating system he could see the rest of their legs as they passed through the hole. Shortly afterwards the area was excavated and a roman road was found along the exact route Harry had seen the soldiers walking. He described the soldiers and the way they were dressed to some local Roman experts and they were identified as the 9th Legion of Rome who mysteriously disappeared and were never found. You can visit the Treasurers House but unfortunately the cellar is closed to the public but they have a camera rigged up in the room you can watch in the hope you will see the Roman soldiers.

From : http://ghostsofthenortheast.150m.com/York.htm

 

[SGT]

Here is the story :



From : http://ghostsofthenortheast.150m.com/York.htm

The description of the outfit of the soldiers matches what Roman soldiers in biblical Holliwood pictures of the fifties wore.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I am not totally sure these are the same story. Curious3141's version doen't have the important piece of equipment and ridicule by authorities elements of Ultima's story.

 

[Overdose]

Read back a few posts, I've proposed a fairly scientific "open minded" study that someone can do for very little $. Tell me what you think about it. If someone has already done something like this let me know. If not, go out there and do it.

I will look into it, it would be interesting to see if anyone has : ) but I am not going to do it myself, that's absurd; and a way of calling someone's bluff to my mind that someone always tries in everyone of these kinds of threads.

 

[Curious3141]

I am not totally sure these are the same story. Curious3141's version doen't have the important piece of equipment and ridicule by authorities elements of Ultima's story.

That's all I could find after a moderately exhaustive search for a good reference.

You are right, zooby, my story is far less "colorful"/"convincing" than the one hinted at by Ultima. Which goes to show that anecdotal accounts change profoundly in the retelling, as they get embellished and polished by countless lips and tongues. Finally, the story becomes wildly different from the original (if there ever really was an original to begin with). In a word, they are unreliable. Of such stuff are myths, fairy tales and major world religions made.

There was a time in my life I was interested in the study of coincidence and synchronicity. I briefly read Carl Jung on it, discarded his notions as being arrant unprovable nonsense for the most part. But there was one incident that sticks in my mind as being an especially significant (statistically improbable) coincidence. Here's the story.

This happened about a decade ago, I think. At the very least 8 years ago. I was in my medical undergrad days, and like all highly lazy people was looking to get through the thing as quickly and as painlessly as possible, with the absolute minimum of effort. So I got interested in speed-reading around this time. (As it turned out, I found all those techniques to be useless, I just settled on my own style, which was fairly quick yet retentive - but I digress).

My friend and I were out seeing a movie at a shopping center with a cinema incorporated within it. After the movie, we were just browsing around the shops with no real aim, when he spotted a (to him) unfamiliar device in the window of a music store. When asked what that was, I answered that it was a "metronome", and that it was used to time music, with the adjustable bob setting the period of the pendulum, etc.

Directly after the music store was a book store. We wandered in and drifted to the self-help section. I was the first to pick out a book, and the book I picked out was one on speed reading. This was not improbable given my interest in the subject at the time. What *was* improbable was what happened next : I flipped open the book at random to somewhere in the middle and it was the title page of a chapter entitled : "Using a metronome to time your speedreading" (or something to that effect).

What are the odds, eh ? First spot and ponder a metronome by accident, then go to a bookstore and the first reference I see is pertaining to a metronome. And it wasn't in a music book either ! I can't enumerate the odds, but I'm guessing they're pretty low.

Spooky ? Shivers down the spine ? Not really, because this story, while unusual, had none of the usual trappings of portents, premonitions or dead people in it. Any reasonable person would just dismiss the whole thing as an interesting coincidence. But just imagine the same story transformed as follows (I'm assuming the role of irrational spirit-believer in this fictionalised first person account) :

"At this time in my life recently after the passing of insert loved one, my thoughts were consumed by bereavement. I happened to be walking through the street one day when my friend and I went into a bookstore just to browse around. I spotted this great book on ornamental vases, so I picked it up and opened it up at random. Imagine my shock when the first picture was of a beautiful vase holding six lilies ! Lilies were the favorite of my dearly departed insert loved one and he/she was taken from us six weeks ago at the age of sixty ! What are the odds ?

I am certain this is a message from insert loved one, and I am now completely sure there is an afterlife and he/she is watching after me from the great beyond..."

A fairly analogous story, and it seems even a little more probable than my story. Yet it is loaded with a lot of subjective significance, and these may be seen as intelligent messages from paranormal forces by the gullible. You and I would likely dismiss it as a simple coincidence and possibly overthinking the significance of minor events, but you'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) by how many people really think in this fashion. Sad.

What is worse, the story will likely become even more embellished by selective memory and wishful thinking. Little remembered details of the event may become molded to align with strongly recalled details surrounding the death. The vase may become transformed in the mind to be the same design as a favorite of the deceased. The bereaved one may suddenly recall that the deceased was also interested in vases, so it was a paranormal force that was prompting him/her to pick up that book in the first place. The page number may be numerologically linked by suitable contortions and bad math to bear some relation to the death date, birth date, marriage date, or any darn date that had the remotest connection to the deceased. Vagueness/inexactness never fazed a numerologist. I think we all know how these things go.

Sorry for the long winded stories, and I know this has little to do with the thread topic. I just wanted to illustrate a point or two about the unreliablity of anecdotal accounts and the gullibility of people, especially at emotionally fragile times.

 

[Curious3141]

I will look into it, it would be interesting to see if anyone has : ) but I am not going to do it myself, that's absurd; and a way of calling someone's bluff to my mind that someone always tries in everyone of these kinds of threads.

Calling your bluff ? Well, I guess I am. You propound, you prove. Isn't that fair ?

 

[zoobyshoe]

I just wanted to illustrate a point or two about the unreliablity of anecdotal accounts...

Well, I don't think anyone disputes that any given story might be a garbled third hand version. That's the main reason I start asking various questions like, is any of this on record anywhere with a date attached, and do all the participants agree to the version presented. How many times has the plumber told the story? Does it change with each of his retellings? That's more to the point than if other people have been discovered to be dressing it up.

I would imagine that if we dug into it we could find the plumber's original report written down somewhere, as well as something about the "expert" opinion that he was seeing that particular Roman regiment. We could also look into SGTs suggestion about how Romans were costumed in any color movies, or colored representaions of any kind, that existed when he had his sighting.

As far as the version that you linked to goes, I believe I have seen that one talked about on a TV program, and there was an important detail not mentioned in your version, which is the alleged explanation for why he couldn't see them from the knees down, which was something to the effect that they discovered that there used to be a Roman era low stone wall in front of where he saw the soldiers marching. In other words, the reason he couldn't see their lower legs was attributed to them being blocked by the now-missing ancient wall. That may be the thing that Ultima garbled into a disputed "piece of equipment."

 

[Ultimâ]

Well, I must admit I could only vagely recall the details, but it something I've read about and heard about on various ocassions in the past. The quote of Curious is a more accurate version. I'm not sure where zoobyshoe's wall comes into the equation though, who'd build a wall at knee level?

Colour tv in England was sometime after 1960 I believe.

One point in Harry's account that adds a lot of validity is he described their shields as being round rather than rectangular. This suggests that they were auxiliary troops rather than regular legions and is a historical detail that was not known at the time of his experience but has later been validated.

=)

 

[SGT]

I would imagine that if we dug into it we could find the plumber's original report written down somewhere, as well as something about the "expert" opinion that he was seeing that particular Roman regiment. We could also look into SGTs suggestion about how Romans were costumed in any color movies, or colored representaions of any kind, that existed when he had his sighting.

As a child I used to frequent catholic church. If I remember well, Roman soldiers in the pictures of The Way of the Cross, wore red kilts, used helmets and carried round shields, short swords or spears. The only thing I don't remember are the green tunics.

Ultimâ, I didn't suggest color TV, but color movies, that were common in the fifties.

 

[Ultimâ]

Very true SGT, so easy to forget about cinema these days =P

I think the general description of the troops easy enough to explain away, but I find the fact about the shield rather interesting. I wonder if it was ever determined that the legion of the ninth had auxilory troops...

The place I found that quote was
http://www.iopr.org.uk/84701/88101.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
which I know was not my original reference, but I'd believe the authenticity of the statement quoted from this place.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As of last year, the plumber was still alive, and is now a local celebrity:

Mail & Guardian Online:
Address:http://www.mg.co.za/articledirect.aspx?area=&articleid=140713

He had seen films about the Roman era. It must be the round shields that are the contended "piece of equipment".

What was shocking to him was how real every element of the apparition seemed: absolutely solid and detailed. He was so upset by it that he retreated to bed for two weeks.

What is impressive to me is the realistic "battered" details. You wouldn't expect this to have been picked up from a Hollywood film from that era where things were usually depicted as new and shiney.

So, on closer examination, this particular story stands apart in my mind as different, and much more interesting, than most "ghost" sightings.

It would be interesting to find the very earliest reports: the ones written down right after he saw it, and to check into the details of the "expert" opinion that this was a particular "lost" regiment, who would have been carrying round shields. What do the actual historical documents say about this regiment? Do they actually refer to it as missing or it it actually a case where expected mention of its arrival somewhere hasn't been found?

 

[fileen]

Im slipping back a bit, someone said that schizophrenia causes auditory hallucinations. this is incorrect. (I know a lot about hallucinations) there are a lot of people very confused about this disease. most schizophrenics experience visual hallucinations only. auditory hallucinations are uncommon on their own, though can accompany the visual hallucinations. either way there are many many accounts of 'unexplained hallucinations' mine use to scared the crap out of me. I don't have schizorphrenia, or bipolar disorder or any other mental disease. for the last few years I have seen the best doctors in Canada. I have traveled all over the place for explanations. they have none. I have tried every test they will give me. I have had a hard time believing what I see to be 'ghosts' whatever that means. I am certain of nothing. thing is, all the doctors say the same thing 'all I can tell you is that your hallucinations are not psychological.' a few have advised me to 'seek spiritual guidance.' my personal doctor and I have worked on this for a very long time. its come to simply be a joke between us. I have completely baffled her and others. I have spoken to numerous religious experts from all sorts of different religions having no specific one of my own. none of them impressed me too much. I have spoken to people claiming to be psychic. it all seems ... well ... bull. any ways the point I am making is that the doctors keep telling me I am not the only one. apparently there are plenty of people who have uneplained hallucinations, most often children. most people grow out of it, or turn to the explanation of ghosts. the difference is the brain. the brain of a schizorphrenic is different from a normal working brain. not just chemically, but sometimes in proportion as well. another point I would like to make here is that unexplained hallucinations are common in gifted kids. this is possibly opening a whole new can of worms, but this is my biggest interest right now. I am profoundly gifted. this is really the only explanation I have for my daily hallucinations. I have had them all my life. my mom claimed I had "a wonderfully vivid and overactive imagination" I am currently an adult and still struggling with this. here's the catch. lots of gifted kids don't hallucinate. so this really isn't much of an explanation is it? I am not going to take a side on this. I've been observing. I want to know what you all think of this. I find it interesting. I also enjoy learning how people think and react with this subject. its a difficult one, and there's no real proof either way. so much we can't know. some of us have no explanation other than ghosts. what's a ghost? to me they are all around. not necessarily dead, but they are every where and I see hear, smell, and taste them. if I could make it stop I would. I have tried. I have taken lots of medications changing my brain and yet there is no effect. still there. I feel for people who see things. they are sure that what they see is real. it can seem very very real. I don't think it is fair for someone who doesn't experience it to sit there and tell me that I don't see anything because there is nothing there. I suffer severely from depression as well. one of the biggest sources of it comes from being told constantly that I am wrong. "theres nothing there" its hard to describe what its like to be misnderstood all your life. of course I have over come this now, but I still feel very alone despite my doctors attempted reassurance that I am not the only one. I am not ashamed of who I am. I don't hide this obstacle in my life. most people are aware. its funny peoples reactions. there is a huge stigma on people who see things. a stigma I don't see here. some of you have first hand experiences, some of you have only facts you have found in books and on the internet. all I say is this: until it happens to you, until you have been where I am you don't know the first thing about this. its impossible for you to understand. like being in love. until you feel it there is no way to understand it. I don't wish to offend anyone. I was not going to put much input to this conversation, but I felt that perhaps you should know that hallucinating is not such a huge phenomenon. it happens to lots of people, and there are many cases unexplained. I thought perhaps I might warn you that there may be someone close to you who you may offend unintentionally. I understand the point here is to debate and try to filter out the fact from fantasy, but I know there are not always solid facts, especially on this subject.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Im slipping back a bit, someone said that schizophrenia causes auditory hallucinations. this is incorrect.

That was me, and it is not incorrect:

"Hallucinations (Criteria A2) may occur in any sensory modality (e.g. auditory, visual, olfactory, gustatory, and tactile), but auditory hallucinations are by far the most common and characteristic of Scizophrenia. Auditory hallucinations are usually experienced as voices, whether familiar or unfamiliar, that are perceived as distinct from the person's own thoughts. The content may be quite variable, although pejorative or threatning voices are especially common. Certain types of auditory hallucinations (i.e. two or more voices conversing with one another or voices maintaining a running commentary on the person's thoughts or behavior) have been considered to be particularly characteristic of Schizophrenia and were included among Schneider's list of first-rank symptoms. If these types of hallucinations are present, then only this single symptom is needed to satisfy Criterion A."

-Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders Fourth Edition 1994, Page 275

That's for the general diagnosis of schizophrenia. For subtype 295.30 Paranoid Type it also says:

"The essential feature of the Paranoid Type of Schizophrenia is the presence of prominent delusions or auditory hallucinations in the context of a relative preservation of cognitive functioning and affect."

-Same book, page 287

Most libraries have a copy of the DSM-IV in which you can check the above quotes.

 

[SGT]

Im slipping back a bit, someone said that schizophrenia causes auditory hallucinations. this is incorrect. (I know a lot about hallucinations) there are a lot of people very confused about this disease. most schizophrenics experience visual hallucinations only. auditory hallucinations are uncommon on their own, though can accompany the visual hallucinations. either way there are many many accounts of 'unexplained hallucinations' mine use to scared the crap out of me. I don't have schizorphrenia, or bipolar disorder or any other mental disease. for the last few years I have seen the best doctors in Canada. I have traveled all over the place for explanations. they have none. I have tried every test they will give me. I have had a hard time believing what I see to be 'ghosts' whatever that means. I am certain of nothing. thing is, all the doctors say the same thing 'all I can tell you is that your hallucinations are not psychological.' a few have advised me to 'seek spiritual guidance.' my personal doctor and I have worked on this for a very long time. its come to simply be a joke between us. I have completely baffled her and others. I have spoken to numerous religious experts from all sorts of different religions having no specific one of my own. none of them impressed me too much. I have spoken to people claiming to be psychic. it all seems ... well ... bull. any ways the point I am making is that the doctors keep telling me I am not the only one. apparently there are plenty of people who have uneplained hallucinations, most often children. most people grow out of it, or turn to the explanation of ghosts. the difference is the brain. the brain of a schizorphrenic is different from a normal working brain. not just chemically, but sometimes in proportion as well. another point I would like to make here is that unexplained hallucinations are common in gifted kids. this is possibly opening a whole new can of worms, but this is my biggest interest right now. I am profoundly gifted. this is really the only explanation I have for my daily hallucinations. I have had them all my life. my mom claimed I had "a wonderfully vivid and overactive imagination" I am currently an adult and still struggling with this. here's the catch. lots of gifted kids don't hallucinate. so this really isn't much of an explanation is it? I am not going to take a side on this. I've been observing. I want to know what you all think of this. I find it interesting. I also enjoy learning how people think and react with this subject. its a difficult one, and there's no real proof either way. so much we can't know. some of us have no explanation other than ghosts. what's a ghost? to me they are all around. not necessarily dead, but they are every where and I see hear, smell, and taste them. if I could make it stop I would. I have tried. I have taken lots of medications changing my brain and yet there is no effect. still there. I feel for people who see things. they are sure that what they see is real. it can seem very very real. I don't think it is fair for someone who doesn't experience it to sit there and tell me that I don't see anything because there is nothing there. I suffer severely from depression as well. one of the biggest sources of it comes from being told constantly that I am wrong. "theres nothing there" its hard to describe what its like to be misnderstood all your life. of course I have over come this now, but I still feel very alone despite my doctors attempted reassurance that I am not the only one. I am not ashamed of who I am. I don't hide this obstacle in my life. most people are aware. its funny peoples reactions. there is a huge stigma on people who see things. a stigma I don't see here. some of you have first hand experiences, some of you have only facts you have found in books and on the internet. all I say is this: until it happens to you, until you have been where I am you don't know the first thing about this. its impossible for you to understand. like being in love. until you feel it there is no way to understand it. I don't wish to offend anyone. I was not going to put much input to this conversation, but I felt that perhaps you should know that hallucinating is not such a huge phenomenon. it happens to lots of people, and there are many cases unexplained. I thought perhaps I might warn you that there may be someone close to you who you may offend unintentionally. I understand the point here is to debate and try to filter out the fact from fantasy, but I know there are not always solid facts, especially on this subject.

Mathematician John Nash had visual and auditory hallucinations. He even conversed with his hallucinations.
As for being brilliant, John Nash got a Nobel Prize for his work.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't have schizorphrenia, or bipolar disorder or any other mental disease. for the last few years I have seen the best doctors in Canada. I have traveled all over the place for explanations. they have none.

It sounds like you have only been seeing psychiatrists, although you didn't go into detail. Have you been to any neurologists?

To the extent you described what you see I would agree that it isn't "psychological" at all. However there are many organic things that can cause hallucinations that require quite a bit of specific testing for.

Likewise, there are people who are very hard to diagnose because they don't fall squarely into one condition or another. Some people have two things going on at once.

As for creativity and hallucinations, I think you would enjoy reading about Nikola Tesla, who could conjure up full blown three dimensional hallucinations of any device he wanted: he could see it in the air in front of him, and make it do whatever he wanted. He actualy engineered the first polyphase motor this way, rather than on paper, and it worked as he envisioned it. He wrote a little book called "My Inventions" which describes this ability he had.

The downside, though, is that Tesla also had big problems with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. He felt compelled to perform certain rituals from time to time to prevent "bad" things from happening. There is no telling if there was any relationship between his OCD and his creative hallucinations.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Mathematician John Nash had visual and auditory hallucinations. He even conversed with his hallucinations.
As for being brilliant, John Nash got a Nobel Prize for his work.

There is some serious doubt about the way his hallucinations were depicted in "A Beautiful Mind". I haven't got to the bottom of this yet. I haven't found a description by Nash himself of what he experiences. If you know of any, I'd appreciate a link.

 

[fileen]

first off again I have no intention to offend anyone. there was a time when I thought I had schizophrenia. I know that I do not. I am sorry but your books mean nothing to me. my doctor teaches at the university of toronto and works with schizophrenics daily. I know what she has told me about myself and others. I have learned through experience. I have learned not to trust everything written in books or found on the internet. for me to say that you were incorrect was the wrong choice of words. auditory hallucinations most often accompany visual hallucinations. its rare to have auditory hallucinations alone.

"The essential feature of the Paranoid Type of Schizophrenia is the presence of prominent delusions or auditory hallucinations in the context of a relative preservation of cognitive functioning and affect"

understand that the word delusion is used to describe a visual hallucination. its a common term used by most doctors. the direct meaning of schizophrenia is multiple realities. lots of people hallucinate, but are not schizophrenic. its the dilusional thinking that comes with the hallucinations that sets appart people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. schizophrenics are not so much medicated to stop hallucinations, but more to stop the paranoia that they, along with everyone else, is out to get them. its the paranoia that makes it so hard to treat. they don't trust doctors, family, friends, the government, etc. a lot of them end up homeless. many of them think doctors are trying to poison them. watch a beautiful mind. I've never personally seen it (dont watch television) but I have been told many times that its a very true example of schizophrenia.

its also important to realize that there is a huge spectrum of schizofrenics. there are people with all sorts of degrees of schizophrenia. some with only schizophrenic tendancies. a lot of doctors are quick to diagnose people based on few symptoms. my doctor admitted to me that there are likely many people diagnosed with and medicated for schizophrenia who do not have the disease. much of the disease is not fully understood. only recently has the medical world begun to understand schizophrenia and other mental disorders. how long ago was it when we stopped electricuting people?seems to me that doctors have this new explanation and apply it to anything that fits. "here take this and everything will be ok"

 

[fileen]

lots and lots of doctors, not just psychiatrist. I am comfortable living with my hallucinations most of the time. I don't fear them. I can't control them, but I am learning how to make them less vivid and distracting through meditation. I use to paint them and such, but I don't any more. as for obsessive compulsive disorder I find it interesting that you mention it. I had some tendancies as a child, but grew out of it. I was extremely depressed then though. some times when I get really depressed some tendancies come back out, but I have not been severely depressed in years. I figure everyone has a bad day once in a while. my depression is not chemical, and can not be linked with my hallucinations.
perhaps I should watch a beautiful mind. a lot of people talk about it.
the origional point I was trying to make in revealing this information about myself was that lots of people with normal brains hallucinate. obviously my hallucinations can't be all explained by natural causes. they are far to frequent. its not a blur on a hill, it is people who talk to me, and occationally even touch me. ghosts? perhaps. though I personally have a hard time believing all of them to be ghosts. there have been times when I have been with people who have also seen what I saw. my friend mona and I saw a man in her house which was empty other than the two of us. he looked up and threw a pop can at us. I could not of conjured this with my mind. mona has no past history of hallucinations. she wouldn't speak with me for months after that incident. she thought I somehow did it. she's now use to me, and doesn't mind at all. I've heard of people sharing hallucinations. I don't know much about it. a doctor explained it to me once. I've forgotten details, but it can be scientifically explained.

 

[SGT]

There is some serious doubt about the way his hallucinations were depicted in "A Beautiful Mind". I haven't got to the bottom of this yet. I haven't found a description by Nash himself of what he experiences. If you know of any, I'd appreciate a link.

In his autobiography Nash understandably does not enter in details about his hallucinations.

Now I must arrive at the time of my change from scientific rationality of thinking into the delusional thinking characteristic of persons who are psychiatrically diagnosed as "schizophrenic" or "paranoid schizophrenic". But I will not really attempt to describe this long period of time but rather avoid embarrassment by simply omitting to give the details of truly personal type.

From http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/sfeature/sf_nash.html

Interview with John Nash: Hearing Voices

John Nash Initially I did not hear any voices. Some years went by before I heard voices and -- I became first disturbed in 1959, and I didn't hear voices until the summer of 1964 I think, but then after that, I heard voices, and then I began arguing with the concept of the voices.

And ultimately I began rejecting them and deciding not to listen, and, of course, my son has been hearing voices, and if he can progress to the state of rejecting them, he can maybe come out of his mental illness.

The consequence of rejecting the voices is ultimately not hearing the voices. You're really talking to yourself is what the voices are, but it's also parallel to a dream. In a dream it's typical not to be rational.

I had some philosophical ideas that were involved. I found myself thinking in political terms, but then I found myself able to criticize this thinking -- that it wasn't very valuable to think in political terms. Even now, I sometimes have a new realization that it can be not so good to think in political terms about some of the current issues. One can leave that to others.

So in rejecting some of the political ideas, that had a relation to the voices, so I could think of a voice maybe as presenting what was analogous to a political argument, and then I could say, I don't want to listen to that.

 

[zoobyshoe]

auditory hallucinations most often accompany visual hallucinations. its rare to have auditory hallucinations alone.

I am sorry, but this is completely untrue. It is very common to experience only auditory hallucinations, that have no visual component whatever.

"The essential feature of the Paranoid Type of Schizophrenia is the presence of prominent delusions or auditory hallucinations in the context of a relative preservation of cognitive functioning and affect"

understand that the word delusion is used to describe a visual hallucination.

No, the word delusion means "a false belief", and is quite distinct from an hallucination:

"Delusions (Criterion A1) are erroneous beliefs that usually involve a misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g. persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, or grandiose). Persecutory delusions are most common; the person believes he or she is being tormented, followed, tricked, spied on, or subjected to ridicule. Referential delusions are also common; the person believes that certain gestures, comments, passages from books, newspapers, song lyrics, or other environmental cues are specifically directed at him or her. The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear contradictory evidence."

-DSM-IV 1996 page 275

 

[zoobyshoe]

In his autobiography Nash understandably does not enter in details about his hallucinations.

From http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/sfeature/sf_nash.html

From the latter quote we get an exclusive report of auditory hallucinations. There is no indication of the elaborate visual/auditory things depicted in the movie. It could be he never had any visual hallucinations, or it could be that, because of the "embarrassment" he only rarely admits to them. I would still like to find more descriptions by him of what he went through to see if there wasn't some basis for Ron Howard to depict the extrordinary long running hallucination of the roomate who didn't actually exist as a visual phenomenon.

 

[fileen]

Im not about to argue with you. it doesn't seem that either of us will have our oppinions swayed in either direction. let's agree to disagree on this. its rather irrelevant anyways. the origional subject was the existence of ghosts.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Here's a "scratch-the-surface" intro to the unusual experiences non-convulsive, simple partial seizures can cause:

The features of seizures beginning in the temporal lobe can be extremely varied, but certain patterns are common. There may be a mixture of different feelings, emotions, thoughts, and experiences, which may be familiar or completely foreign. In some cases, a series of old memories resurfaces. In others, the person may feel as if everything—including home and family—appears strange. Hallucinations of voices, music, people, smells, or tastes may occur.These features are called "auras" or "warnings." They may last for just a few seconds, or may continue as long as a minute or two.

(Note: it is only called an "aura" or "warning" if it leads into a more serious seizure. If it doesn't, it is called a simple-partial seizure as described below. There is no defect of consciousness during a simple-partial seizure, or during an "aura".)

Experiences during temporal lobe seizures vary in intensity and quality. Sometimes the seizures are so mild that the person barely notices. In other cases, the person may be consumed with fright, intellectual fascination, or even pleasure.

The experiences and sensations that accompany these seizures are often impossible to describe, even for the most eloquent adult. And of course it is even more difficult to get an accurate picture of what children are feeling..."

"...Three-quarters of people with TLE also have simple partial seizures, in which they remain fully conscious. Some people have only simple partial seizures and never have a change in consciousness.."

Temporal Lobe Epilepsy : Epilepsy.com
Address:http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/epilepsy_temporallobe.html

That last sentence: Some people have only simple partial seizures and never have a change in consciousness" points out that, with no convulsions or loss of consciouness, the average person having a simple-partial has no notion to even begin looking for a neurological explanation of any weird experience, and they usually don't.