Area of a circle without calculus

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the area of a circle, specifically the formula A = πR², without using calculus or Archimedes' method. Participants explore various intuitive and geometric approaches to understand the area calculation, touching on both theoretical and practical aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose using the concept of a circle's radius sweeping around to intuitively derive the area as A = πR², though this is noted to be an application of calculus.
  • Others suggest practical methods, such as using a string to define a circular field, but acknowledge this does not help in calculating the area.
  • A participant mentions using grid paper to approximate the area by counting squares, referencing a middle school technique.
  • The "Monte Carlo" method is introduced as a way to estimate the area by random sampling within a square that bounds the circle.
  • One participant describes cutting thin circular strips from the circle and rearranging them into a triangle to derive the area, but questions about the clarity of this construction arise.
  • Concerns are raised about proving that the rearranged shape is indeed a triangle, with some participants suggesting that the construction resembles calculus-based proofs.
  • Another participant argues that approximating the area without calculus ultimately leads to concepts of limits, which are foundational to calculus.
  • Historical references are made to mathematicians like Gilles de Roberval, questioning whether similar methods could be applied to circles as were used for sine curves.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the possibility of deriving the area without invoking calculus or limits, suggesting that intuitive constructions are merely approximations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the feasibility of deriving the area of a circle without calculus. While some methods are proposed, there is no consensus on a definitive approach that meets the original requirement.

Contextual Notes

Several contributions highlight the limitations of intuitive methods, noting that many approaches rely on concepts that are closely related to calculus, such as Riemann sums and limits. The discussion also reflects varying degrees of mathematical rigor among participants.

  • #31
arydberg said:
It is a right triangle.
As you described things, "it" isn't a right trangle. When you divide one of the original 60° sectors in two, the two new chords are presumably points on the circle. Each of the new triangles is isosceles, with a 30° angle at the top (radiating from the circle's center) and two base angles of 75°. These aren't right triangles. The two triangles whose hypotenuses are the new chords, and whose bases are half the length of the old chord (before splitting the equilateral triangle into two). Those two small triangles are right triangles, each with an acute angle of 15°.
 
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  • #32
Orodruin said:
Also:
  1. That method computes the area, but the approach is suggestively similar to a Riemann sum. It is just an area integral of a piecewise constant function.
  2. You obtain the area, but it does not show that the area is ##\pi##. If you have a numerical value for ##\pi## obtained from elsewhere, you can just see it approaching. You need to show that the limit of the series is equal to your given value (which probably is also a different series).
pi is simply the length of one half of a unit circle.

At the process goes on 1/2 the sum of the lengths of the chords approaches the length of half the circumference.
Mark44 said:
As you described things, "it" isn't a right triangle. When you divide one of the original 60° sectors in two, the two new chords are presumably points on the circle. Each of the new triangles is isosceles, with a 30° angle at the top (radiating from the circle's center) and two base angles of 75°. These aren't right triangles. The two triangles whose hypotenuses are the new chords, and whose bases are half the length of the old chord (before splitting the equilateral triangle into two). Those two small triangles are right triangles, each with an acute angle of 15°.
Yes everything you say is correct. My point is that you can use these right triangles to compute the length of the two new chords in terms of the old chord. This results in a approximation of pi and it can be done over and over to any degree of accuracy desired.
 
  • #33
arydberg said:
pi is simply the length of one half of a unit circle.

At the process goes on 1/2 the sum of the lengths of the chords approaches the length of half the circumference.

Yes. And how do you show that your sum actually approaches this number? As I said, you need to show that your series converge to the same number.
 
  • #34
Is finding the area of a circle not called “squaring the circle” ?
Was calculus not devised to make it possible to “square the circle” ?
What has changed that now makes calculus no longer necessary for the task it was created to solve ?
 
  • #35
Baluncore said:
Is finding the area of a circle not called “squaring the circle” ?

No. "Squaring the circle" refers to one of the classic problems in straightedge-and-compass Euclidean geometry, the problem of constructing, using straightedge and compass alone, a square with area equal to that of a given circle. This problem is not solvable by straightedge and compass alone (briefly, because ##\pi## is transcendental, and transcendental numbers cannot be constructed with straightedge and compass alone).

Baluncore said:
Was calculus not devised to make it possible to “square the circle” ?

No.
 
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  • #36
PeterDonis said:
classic problems in straightedge-and-compass
You are ignoring the requirement that it be done "using only a finite number of steps" with straightedge-and-compass.
Taking an infinite number of steps in one step is what calculus made possible.
 
  • #37
Baluncore said:
You are ignoring the requirement that it be done "using only a finite number of steps" with straightedge-and-compass.
Taking an infinite number of steps in one step is what calculus made possible.
I don't think @PeterDonis's intent was to provide a complete description of "squaring the circle." It was to dispute your claim that finding the area of a circle was "squaring the circle." I agree with Peter -- it isn't.
 
  • #38
Baluncore said:
Taking an infinite number of steps in one step is what calculus made possible.

This is perfectly true, and has nothing to do with what I was saying. As @Mark44 has said, I was disputing your claim that the term "squaring the circle" means "finding the area of a circle". It doesn't; the term "squaring the circle" has a much more specific meaning, which I described, and which has nothing whatever to do with using calculus to derive the formula for the area of a circle in terms of its radius.
 

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