Assumption in the derivation of the Lorentz transformation

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the assumptions made in deriving the Lorentz transformation in the context of special relativity. Participants explore the implications of assuming the Lorentz factor is independent of the sign of relative velocity, examining both mathematical and physical justifications for this assumption.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why the assumption that the Lorentz factor is independent of the sign of relative velocity is made, suggesting it requires justification.
  • Others argue that the isotropy of space implies that a relative velocity of ##v## is equivalent to ##-v##, supporting the assumption.
  • One participant highlights the need for further justification to exclude alternative forms of the Lorentz factor, such as ##\gamma(v) = \frac{1}{1+\frac{v}{c}}## or ##\gamma = \frac{1}{1-\frac{v}{c}}##.
  • Some contributions reference the reciprocity theorem, emphasizing the symmetry in inertial reference frames and its implications for the derivation of the Lorentz transformation.
  • A participant mentions different derivations of the Lorentz transformation that do not encounter the same ambiguities, suggesting that some derivations may inherently resolve the issue of the sign of the velocity.
  • Another participant discusses the mathematical steps involved in the transformation, noting the conditions under which length contraction can be derived and the symmetry required for the factors to be equal.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and justification of the assumption regarding the Lorentz factor. There is no consensus on whether the assumption is trivial or requires further justification, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves various assumptions about the nature of space and time, as well as the mathematical properties of the transformations. The implications of these assumptions are not fully resolved, leaving room for multiple interpretations.

  • #31
PAllen said:
Actually, I don't think the aether theory was considered to imply anisotropy. It was considered to be a physically preferred 'frame' in the same way as air on earth. What its frame was would be considered an accident of initial condition (in modern parlance, a symmetry breaking in the origin of the universe). But there would be no difference between moving left, right, north, south etc. relative to the aether, nor would homogeneity be violated - different positions in the aether would be equivalent.
So you're saying that the idea is that the æther existed, just that no one really knew where the origin or how the axes were oriented?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
swampwiz said:
So you're saying that the idea is that the æther existed, just that no one really knew where the origin or how the axes were oriented?
No, that's the Lorentz aeither theory. The one before the Michelson Morley experiment, there was the expectation that there would be anisotropy in observed two way speed of light, but this was not considered fundamental, any more than such an observation for sound in air along two directions on a platform moving in air would.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: bhobba
  • #33
Well, there was another episode around the Michelson-Morley (MM) experiment in the early 1920ies. Dayton and Miller repeated the MM experiment in 1925 at Mount Wilson with the result of having seen an "aether wind". The rationale behind this was the idea that the null result of the MM is not because of relativity but because
there is an "aether drag" close to the Earth becoming weaker higher up. Of course most of the physicists where very skeptical because of all the confirmations of special (and also some of general) relativity, but there were also some prominent proponents of the aether hypothesis. Thus the measurements where repeated again, some financed by the "Notgemeinschaft der Deutschen Wissenschaft", which shows how important the issue has been considered in those days, with the result that the Dayton and Miller experiment must have been flawed somehow, because indeed the original null result by MM has been confirmed.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: bhobba
  • #34
vanhees71 said:
Dayton and Miller
One person. Dayton is hist first name. Not as confusing as Hanbury-Brown. But close.

The real reason this never went anywhere is that they were neither confirmed nor "prefirmed". (Past experiments disagreed) At the time, statistics was still being developed, and it wasn't really appreciated that millions of data point was only part of the story.

Tom Roberts re-analyzed the Miller experiment from a modern perspective here: https://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0608238 I dislike re-analysis papers in general, but this one is very good.
 
  • Informative
Likes   Reactions: bhobba and vanhees71

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
  • · Replies 28 ·
Replies
28
Views
4K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K