Asteroid impact events in history/mythology

[Unbeliever]

Given the frequency of relatively minor asteroidal impacts, similar to the Tunguska event, it seems to me that ancient literature would be rife with stories of them, probably interpreted as acts of the gods or God. For example, in the Bible is the story (2Samuel 24 and 1Chronicles 21) of David taking a census of the people, which angered God so much that he sent a pestilence that killed numerous Israelites: 1Chronicles 21:16 "And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the Earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem." I don't know why pestilence would be associated with an impact, though. Having seen an artist's rendering of what the Tunguska event may have looked like, I can well imagine David having seen something similar. The sword the angel held could've been the trail left by an infalling bit of space depris, and the body of the angel could've been the explosion itself.

Whether or not that specific case is an example of an impact in ancient literature (it may well not be), has anyone done a study of ancient mythology with the purpose of uncovering those kinds of events? Only a fairly small number would have occurred in regions we've got records of, but there should be many records of such awesome events.

 

[granpa]

I would think that volcanic activity would be more common. the exodus is said to have occurred at the time of the santorini eruption.

rev 8:8 does sound like an impact though.

 

[marcus]

Unbee,
Actually a good place to start threads about the historicity of events described in the O.T. of the Bible might be the Sociology forum (part of Other Science). It has a Humanities subforum. You can often find interesting discussions there.

In Astro forum it doesn't work so well because we don't know that any of those Exodus events occurred, so it doesn't make sense to try to correlate them with astronomical events.

Just my two cents---I don't have anything to do with it, but I think you might get more mileage with your questions if you posted in Sociology or it's Humanities subforum.

... the exodus is said to have occurred at the time of the santorini eruption...

Granpa, it sounds like you are assuming that an event corresponding to Exodus actually occurred. Do you think of Exodus as historical? I don't know of any Egyptian documents that corroborate the scriptural account, or of any archeological evidence that the Kings David and Solomon existed. Do you?

In the absence of evidence, I'm inclined to think that the Exodus stories were made up during the Babylonian Captivity as a way of forging a national consciousness among a group of those who were forced to relocate. The Babylonian Captivity is certainly real. It was Babylonian policy to undermine ethnic and political identities by uprooting minorities and moving them around. I think the leaders of those displaced reacted intelligently and creatively in this case by fabricating an epic past with a made-up Moses character, a great escape from slavery, hero kings, and a whole lot of human interest stories involving fascinating men and women characters and dramatic situations.

I don't know of any contemporary records the refer to any of these events occurring at whatever time they were supposed to occur. If you do---if you know of any evidence that events before the Babylonian Captivity were real---any references to someone named Moses etc. Especially if the sources are accessible online, I would love to know of them.

I've always thought of the early Old Testament stories as great literature, so it would be exciting for me to learn of credible evidence that the main events actually happened and were not purely made up.

 

[Andre]

While it does not constitute any evidence of any event, nevertheless, the myth of
Phaethon joy riding the sun is interesting.

Flying too far from the earth, they caused the inhabitants to freeze and shiver as the sun chariot flew higher and higher, and all the plants began to shrivel and die. But at once plunging down and flying too close to the earth, they scorched and burned the people and landscape, causing terrible grief and hysteria.

There you go, eye witnesses of the ice age and the interglacials? Supernova? :uhh:

 

[Andre]

cont'd

Incidentily, the mischievous conduct of Phaethon has been explained by Plato in the Timaeus dialogues with Socrates:

There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore.

 

[baywax]

cont'd

Incidentily, the mischievous conduct of Phaethon has been explained by Plato in the Timaeus dialogues with Socrates:

I heard somewhere that it was Plato who also coined the term "the pairing knife of the gods" referring to asteroid impacts or other anomalies disrupting life on earth. In fact this may have been in reference to his fabled account of Atlantis and its swift fall from grace.

 

[baywax]

The Babylonian Captivity is certainly real. It was Babylonian policy to undermine ethnic and political identities by uprooting minorities and moving them around. I think the leaders of those displaced reacted intelligently and creatively in this case by fabricating an epic past with a made-up Moses character, a great escape from slavery, hero kings, and a whole lot of human interest stories involving fascinating men and women characters and dramatic situations.

I don't know of any contemporary records the refer to any of these events occurring at whatever time they were supposed to occur. If you do---if you know of any evidence that events before the Babylonian Captivity were real---any references to someone named Moses etc. Especially if the sources are accessible online, I would love to know of them.

I've always thought of the early Old Testament stories as great literature, so it would be exciting for me to learn of credible evidence that the main events actually happened and were not purely made up.

That's interesting about the Babylonian Captivity. I do have some reference to a Moses that may interest you.

Abstract

A previously unnoticed correspondence between the name of Moses' mother in the Bible and that of the mother of King Oedipus in Greek traditions leads to a convincing new proof that both women were one and the same as historical Queen Tiye, mother of the sensational and mysterious Egyptian 18th Dynasty Pharaoh Akhenaten. The mother of Moses is named in the Bible as Jochebed ("nobility of Jo/Yah"). The Hebrew name Jochebed is identical to that of Oedipus' mother, which is given in the Sophocles plays as Jocaste. Jocaste also translates from the Greek as "nobility of Jo/Yah." The mother of Akhenaten has been established by archaeology as the Queen Tiye. Tiye was in turn the daughter of the Prime Minister "Ya" (Vizier Yuya) who governed Egypt during the reigns of Pharaohs Thutmose IV and Amenhotep III. Ahmed Osman has previously established the relationship between Yuya and the Biblcal Joseph. Both names, Yuya and Joseph/Yuseph, derive from the deity Yahweh/Jehovah. Therefore, Tiye as the real life mother of Akhenaten, was quite literally of the "nobility of Ya" as well!

This triple correspondence is entirely reasonable. However, the controversy involves the emphatic assertion by Sophocles and other Greek writers that Oedipus also sired heirs through a dynastic marriage with his mother. Surprisingly, a fresh investigation of relevant passages in the Bible and the Talmud also indicates that Zipporah, the wife of Moses and mother of his two sons, was also considered by ancient Jews to be Moses' own mother. Pseudonyms were used to separate the two roles of Tiye. As mother of Akhenaten she is Jochebed, and as his wife Zipporah. Moreover, there is strong circumstantial archaeological evidence attesting to a dynastic marriage between Akhenaten and his mother Tiye. This does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that Akhenaten (Moses/Oedipus) actually did produce royal heirs by his mother Tiye (Jochebed/Jocaste). It does lead to the conclusion that, right or wrong, this is what reliable and independent textual sources are explicitly and implicitly telling us. DNA testing of 18th Dynasty royals, which is presently underway at Brigham Young University may help resolve this emotionally charged issue.

http://members.aol.com/ankhemmaat/jocaste.htm Here's another account of where the name may have come from...

In any case, let us assume that whoever named Moses knew Hebrew. How
valid, then, does the Hebrew etymology seem? As an Egyptologist, I must
here rely on the arguments of Hebrew scholars, who generally agree that
it simply doesn’t make sense.2 The biblical etymology—which says the
baby’s name is based on his having been drawn out of water—would lead
one to expect a name that means "the one drawn out" or "he who was
drawn"; that is, a passive form. But Moshe has an active participle
behind it;3 the name means "the one who draws." (That’s why Isaiah calls
him "the drawer" of his people [Isaiah 6:3].) The passive form would
result in a name like Mashuy, not Moshe.

The Egyptian language provides a far more plausible etymology.4 The name
Moses is related to common Egyptian names like Amenmose, Ramose and
Thutmose,* which are formed of a god’s name followed by mose.5 These
compound names mean something like "Amen is born" or "Born of Amen" or
"The offspring of Ra" or "The child of Thoth." When the name Mose
appears by itself, as it occasionally does in Egyptian, it simply means
"the Child" or "the Offspring."6 But in Egyptian, Mose most frequently
appears along with the name of a god as part of a compound name.

Most likely of all, the name Moses (assuming that he originally had a
longer name) is short for Ramose, a popular name related to the name of
the reigning pharaoh, Ramesses II.**—would also mean "Ra is born," but
his name is normally written R‘-ms-sw (roughly, Ramessu) and means
"Ra-fashioned him," using another meaning of the verb msi, that is, "to
fashion, form." The two senses of the verb are related, however, in that
Egyptians thought of the fashioning of a divine statue as equivalent to
the god being born.) It was a common custom among the Egyptians to
rename foreign slaves or captives after the pharaoh.

The technical term for a compound name with a divine element is a
"theophoric" or "theophorous" name, derived from a Greek word meaning
"bearing [derived from] a god."7

http://www.edofolks.com/html/pub119.htm

As for historical accounts of "The Exodus"... who do you believe? Until
we find a bunch of chariots and Yuel Brenner's skeleton at the bottom
of the Red Sea, we don't know squat.