Back to basics: bubbles in a syringe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of bubble expansion in a syringe filled with water when the plunger is pulled back. Participants explore the underlying mechanisms, including pressure changes, gas diffusion, and potential evaporation of water into the bubbles. The conversation covers theoretical aspects and visualizations rather than specific experimental outcomes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the expansion of bubbles is due to a rectified diffusion process where gas in the fluid is drawn into the bubbles as pressure changes.
  • Another participant proposes using the ideal gas law to calculate the expected expansion of gas when pressure is reduced, questioning if this matches observed bubble growth.
  • Some participants argue that even without dissolved air, bubbles will grow due to water evaporating into them to equilibrate with the lower pressure created by pulling the plunger.
  • There is a discussion about the role of surface tension and the conditions under which bubbles can form or expand, including the concept of vacuum bubbles and nucleation sites.
  • One participant questions the necessity of gas in bubbles, suggesting that a void in the liquid could also be considered a bubble, and discusses the stability of such voids against disturbances.
  • Another participant raises the issue of Laplace pressure and the stability of very small bubbles, indicating a potential conflict in understanding bubble dynamics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the mechanisms behind bubble expansion, including the roles of pressure change, evaporation, and the nature of bubbles themselves. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus reached on the primary cause of bubble growth.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight various assumptions, such as the initial conditions of the syringe and the presence of dissolved gases. The discussion also touches on the complexities of bubble formation and stability, indicating that further exploration of these concepts may be necessary.

  • #31
Chestermiller said:
This started out as a model in which the system is close to thermodynamic equilibrium and gradually changing within a syringe. Now it turns out that the desired idealized model should be something like a bubble in an infinite ocean of water containing dissolved air in which the dissolved air concentration at infinity is a fixed value and the pressure at infinity is being oscillated. We would be looking for the oscillatory steady state (in which velocities, concentrations, and pressures are varying sinusoidally). This is quite a stretch from a system close to thermodynamic equilibrium.

I agree, you are quite right, I was trying to compare the two, taking the syringe as a simplified version of the ultrasonic system, which I now realize is inaccurate. But I first needed to understand the syringe system. Basically I was trying to assess if any vaporisation could occur for the syringe system with a view to understanding more the effects of vaporisation for the ultrasonic system.
 
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  • #32
rwooduk said:
I agree, you are quite right, I was trying to compare the two, taking the syringe as a simplified version of the ultrasonic system, which I now realize is inaccurate. But I first needed to understand the syringe system. Basically I was trying to assess if any vaporisation could occur for the syringe system with a view to understanding more the effects of vaporisation for the ultrasonic system.
The amount of water vapor in the bubbles is going to be changing, although it is not clear (until the problem is fully modeled) how important this effect will be.
 
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  • #33
Chestermiller said:
The amount of water vapor in the bubbles is going to be changing, although it is not clear (until the problem is fully modeled) how important this effect will be.

It does change and is often related to the structural stability of the bubbles (which adds another element to the situation). A more unstable bubble such as would be seen at high acoutic pressures or with increased acoustic streaming can increase rectified diffusion. It's important for sonolytic process where polyatomic vapours can act to reduce the bubble temperature due to their higher heat capacity. But I'll stop there in an effort to not move further away from the OP. Thanks again.
 

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