Ball rolling with varying deceleration

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around modeling the position of a rolling ball over time, particularly focusing on the effects of air resistance and friction on its deceleration. Participants explore the transition between sliding and rolling motion, and the implications of these modes on the ball's movement. The scope includes theoretical modeling and mathematical reasoning related to motion under varying forces.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks a formula for the position of a rolling ball, noting that it may slide at high speeds and roll at lower speeds, suggesting different deceleration behaviors in these modes.
  • Another participant proposes to focus solely on air drag, suggesting a deceleration proportional to the square of the speed, and questions the validity of their derived equations for position over time.
  • A third participant points out that the second equation presented is only valid for constant acceleration and suggests integrating the acceleration function to determine how velocity changes over time.
  • Another participant agrees that deceleration can be modeled as proportional to speed but suggests that at low speeds, drag may be proportional only to speed itself, proposing a differential equation to describe the velocity over time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effects of air drag at various speeds and the appropriate mathematical models to use. There is no consensus on the best approach to model the ball's motion, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of the equations and assumptions involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their models, including the dependence on assumptions about the nature of air drag at different speeds and the need for integration to accurately describe velocity changes over time. The discussion also highlights the complexity of incorporating both air resistance and friction into the model.

inflation
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
I'd like to see an example of a formula describing the position of a rolling ball over time. It has been given one impuls at the start, after which air resistance and friction decelerates it (the ground is flat). At high speed the ball might be sliding, until it decelerates to some threshold speed when it starts to roll. The deceleration might behave quite different in those two modes, I guess.

How should I formulate the balls position as a function of time based on those characteristics?

I intend to observe the position of a rolling (sliding) ball at different times, and I want to formulate a function to fit with those observations in order to figure out where the ball has been at any given point in time. I thought it might make more sense to estimate the parameters of a model with some basis in real physics, rather than to fit any curve.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
BUMP
Let's skip the "two modes" sliding and rolling for now, and just look at air drag:

I want an expression for the position of an object over time. I know its position x0 and speed v0 at time t=0. I know that it is decelerating due to air drag and can assume that the deceleration is proportional to speed squared: a=k*v² (can I do this and assume that k has the unit "1/meter" so that the units work out?)

Now, step by step:

1) The position given constant speed is x = v0*t.
2) Given constant deceleration x = v0*t-a*t²/2.
3) With air drag changing the deceleration x = v0*t-k*v²*t²/2.

My problem is to get rid of that "v" in equation 3. How does v change over time?

If I try something like this:
x = a*t²/2
a = 2x/t²
2x/t² = k*v²
v = root(2x/(k*t²))

And insert in equation 3:
x = v0*t-k*[2x/(k*t²)]*t²/2.

Then t cancels out from everything but v0*t so that the motion is linear. So I was just going in a circle there.
 
Last edited:
inflation said:
Now, step by step:

1) The position given constant speed is x = v0*t.
2) Given constant deceleration x = v0*t-a*t²/2.
3) With air drag changing the deceleration x = v0*t-k*v²*t²/2.
Your equation #2 is only valid for constant acceleration, so it won't apply here. To see how the velocity varies with time, you must integrate the acceleration function.
 
Yea you can assume that, but I believe at low speeds drag is proportional only to v. I think you can write a differential equation: v' = (k/m)*v then just find the solution to
v' - (k/m)*v = 0 which I got was v(t) = c1*e^(kt/m) c1 being a new constant from integrating. This is just a hunch as I am new to applying DEs and this only takes in drag as the only thing affecting the motion. You can add friction in too.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
11K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
9K