News Baltimore riots after Freddie Gray funeral

[mheslep]

... I don't see one here (nor did the judge) and ...

AFAIK it's only prosecutor, jury, witnesses. No judge in grand juries.

From the video I thought the GJ finding no fault in Gardner's death was incomprehensible. Tackle a guy with a choke hold who's standing there, unarmed, making no physical threats, while he repeats "I can't breath"? Absent some medical condition that caused his death and not the tackle, I expected a charge of something like manslaughter. And though it's not illegal, I like to see some jail time for the NYC officials who enacted laws requiring arrest and not, say, a ticket for a guy selling loose cigs on the corner.

 

[nsaspook]

http://news.sciencemag.org/people-events/2015/04/can-riots-be-predicted

Q: What can you learn about the Baltimore riots from social media?

A: The protesters are mostly teens who use social media routinely. The riots that started around 3:30 p.m.—ignited by messages on social media urging high school students to “purge”—spread within 3 hours around the city. It's interesting to see the pattern of spread, much like forest fires, spreading in clusters and locally. The riots, in my view, could easily spread also across other cities in the United States where racial tensions are high and are close to a tipping point.

 

[russ_watters]

AFAIK it's only prosecutor, jury, witnesses. No judge in grand juries.

I was referring to the decision to release or not release the records -- that's a decision for a judge:

State Supreme Court Justice William Garnett noted that they had not shown a "compelling and particularized need" for the testimony's release, as is required by law.

"If every newsworthy case were deemed compelling and, thus justified disclosure, the veil of grand jury secrecy would be lifted and every citizen's right to have fellow citizens, sitting on a grand jury, check the power of the police and the prosecutor without pressure from outside influences — real or perceived — would be imperiled," Garnett wrote in his order.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...e-of-grand-jury-testimony-in-eric-garner-case

From the video I thought the GJ finding no fault in Gardner's death was incomprehensible.

It does seem like a bad decision. Reading the wiki on grand juries, there are a lot of common complaints about them, including that they sometimes confuse the burden of proof standard with that of a trial and aren't given good enough instructions.

However, I'm not sure people recognize that the burden of proof against a cop at trial is much higher than that for a common citizen because citizens are not allowed to initiate violence at all, but cops are. If you so much as shove someone and they trip and hit their head on a doorknob and die, you can be convicted of manslaughter for causing it. If a cop does it, they probably wouldn't be because they are allowed to use force/violence when making an arrest.

 

[Tobias Funke]

The appeals to MLK whenever this happens are just too much. If you get past the grade school (and middle school, and high school) hogwash about him being the "good" black guy who everyone adored and who finally solved racism, you might find that you hate what he had to say:

It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard.

There will always be a part of the crowd that gets violent, and that part will always be used to try to represent the protest as a whole. Even the thread title does this. It's not "Another black man dies in police confrontation", or "Baltimore protests after Freddie Gray's death", nor is there another thread dedicated to that issue. Anyone can denounce riots (like MLK, me, everyone here), but what about the cause? Throwing in a "sure, protests are justified" and "sure, there's institutional racism in the police force" doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[nsaspook]

There will always be a part of the crowd that gets violent, and that part will always be used to try to represent the protest as a whole. Even the thread title does this. It's not "Another black man dies in police confrontation", or "Baltimore protests after Freddie Gray's death", nor is there another thread dedicated to that issue. Anyone can denounce riots (like MLK, me, everyone here), but what about the cause? Throwing in a "sure, protests are justified" and "sure, there's institutional racism in the police force" doesn't accomplish anything.

No it doesn't.
Which is why I marched for civil right in the 60's for the right to go to school, to get a job and raise a family with some level of equality in this country. All of those things are open to the people of Baltimore today. Police issues while bad are not the leading cause of violent death in the black community, violent black people are. I wonder when there will be a protest about that?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Police issues while bad are not the leading cause of violent death in the black community, violent black people are

The black community does not see black violence as a cause to their problem, rather a symptom of the problem.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Police issues while bad are not the leading cause of violent death in the black community, violent black people are. I wonder when there will be a protest about that?

Not the leading cause of violent death in the black community, but a cause, right? Thus, the protests...I don't see the point. As far as protesting "violent black people", isn't that the same as protesting for changes in education, housing, employment, drug laws, etc? Those "contingent, intolerable conditions"? If you're saying those are gone, then I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

 

[nsaspook]

I'm not saying anything is gone but compared to then, today is a heaven. There is a culture of American black violence in this country that's rotten to the core and completely disconnected from education, housing, employment discrimination. That culture needs to change but I believe some are using that as leverage to remain in power in the black community.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

There is a culture of American black violence in this country that's rotten to the core and completely disconnected from education, housing, employment discrimination.

So you were there in the 60s. What has happened in the past 50 years to create what we see today?

 

[nsaspook]

So you were there in the 60s. What has happened in the past 50 years to create what we see today?

The lack of strong families, we were poor but unbreakable. The culture of 'no daddy' was I think a unintended consequence of needed measures that created incentives for broken homes. Many Black men were seen as liabilities to government incentives so many lost a father figure early in life to teach them how to funnel rage and desire into emotions for a productive society. Many American black people simply lack empathy for others because it was under developed as a child in a family where compromise is necessary. Empathy requires personal effort and lack of empathy is more important than structural racism today IMO.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The lack of strong families.

So the question becomes, how do we rebuild the black family.

 

[nsaspook]

So the question becomes, how do we rebuild the black family.

The way capitalism always works, make strong black (and poor) families profitable vs broken homes in the long run but healing the culture is hard once the chain is broken. I don't know the answer for the country as a whole, I only know how to make my family work.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The way capitalism always works, make strong black (and poor) families profitable vs broken homes in the long run but healing the culture is hard once the chain is broken. I don't know the answer for the country as a whole, I only know how to make my family work.

Other than for the prison industry, how are broken homes profitable?

 

[Vanadium 50]

"Cause" is a tough word, but there are certain obvious differences:

• Leadership: Al Sharpton is no Martin Luther King
  
• The Civil War has passed from direct memory: in the 60's there were people who knew people who fought. Today there are not.
  
• The degree of direct discrimination is way down, but the degree of communication of those events is way up: Michael Brown is no Emmett Till
• In the 60's education was seen by the majority as a fundamental civil right, and not "acting white":
  
• There were two civil rights movements in the 60's - the "inclusive one" (MLK is an example), and an "exclusive one" (Malcolm X is an example). Today the leadership is entirely in the latter one - e.g. Jesse Jackson and "Hymietown".
• The number of African-American female household heads has soared from 18% in 1950 to 68% today. The fraction of children born out of wedlock is 75% nationally (and 90% in some places), but was 14% in the 1940's.
  
• The Democratic Party has grown much more dependent on the African-American vote. At the same time, as poor African-Americans enter the middle class, their voting shifts more Republican. This politicizes the issue, and it does so in a very peculiar way, since the parties' short- and long- term goals are odds with each other.
• The US has had a half-century experience with the Great Society, and we can see some things - e.g. high-rise public housing - that clearly don't work. On the other hand, some things are so ingrained in the culture (integration of public facilities) that we can't imagine things being any other way. Things that were thought to be temporary, such as the "special provisions" of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 (these apply to most of the former Confederacy and a few other places) were argued should be permanent.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Other than for the prison industry, how are broken homes profitable?

I think his argument was to reduce the number of broken homes.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The US has had a half-century experience with the Great Society, and we can see some things - e.g. high-rise public housing - that clearly don't work.

I need to read up on this topic. I've heard it referenced a lot, but don't know anything about it. Sounds very interesting.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I think his argument was to reduce the number of broken homes.

Right and I thought his angle was that there are forces that profit from a broken home. No?

 

[Borg]

Right and I thought his angle was that there are forces that profit from a broken home. No?

Unfortunately, I think that one could write entire books on this.

 

[nsaspook]

Right and I thought his angle was that there are forces that profit from a broken home. No?

Not, really. I don't think there is a cabal of people putting 'black people down' for money but in general if there is money to be made from improving black family's instead on putting men in jail someone will think about making that money in the most efficient and profitable way possible.

 

[HuskyNamedNala]

Not, really. I don't think there is a cabal of people putting 'black people down' for money but in general if there is money to be made from improving black family's instead on putting men in jail someone will think about making that money in the most efficient and profitable way possible.

To be more general, there is quite a bit of profitability from the poor. Prisons are a good example and so are predatory student loans/for profit colleges. I would argue that there are forces trying to keep people down.

 

[nsaspook]

To be more general, there is quite a bit of profitability from the poor. Prisons are a good example and so are predatory student loans/for profit colleges. I would argue that there are forces trying to keep people down.

Even if there was (and I don't believe it) if more profit could be made from 'pulling people up' they would be on it like 'white on rice'.

 

[HuskyNamedNala]

More profit could be created, I agree, but that would entail getting the people currently profiting out of power. Unfortunately, some believe they are "too big to fail".

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Freddie Gray death ruled homicide; officers charged
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/01/us/freddie-gray-baltimore-death/index.html

The police union said none of the officers was responsible for Gray's death. How can they make that statement? How can they know?

 

[Tobias Funke]

I'm not saying anything is gone but compared to then, today is a heaven. There is a culture of American black violence in this country that's rotten to the core and completely disconnected from education, housing, employment discrimination. That culture needs to change but I believe some are using that as leverage to remain in power in the black community.

Today may be a heaven on average compared to the 60s, but it doesn't seem all that much better for those in the worst inner-city slums. In any case, the 1960s themselves were a heaven compared to the 1850s or the 1910s---so what? There were still issues to protest, as there are now.

What's the cause of this culture of violence that's supposedly disconnected from overall society? Why did black family dynamics change? You said something about "needed measures" above but I'm not sure what you mean (welfare?).

Anyway, I agree with Borq that one could, and many do, write whole books about this. I think Michelle Alexander does quite a good job describing "the new Jim Crow" (in fact, much of the criticism of her book comes from being offended by that phrase and not the actual content), and she doesn't shy away from "black on black violence" or the fact that black communities themselves often support tough-on-crime policies. I even read James Forman Jr's Racial Critiques of Mass Incarceration: Beyond the New Jim Crow, which is sometimes offered as a rebuttal to Alexander but actually largely agrees with her and praises her as the best of the "new Jim Crow" writers.

 

[nsaspook]

...
Anyway, I agree with Borq that one could, and many do, write whole books about this. I think Michelle Alexander does quite a good job describing "the new Jim Crow" (in fact, much of the criticism of her book comes from being offended by that phrase and not the actual content), and she doesn't shy away from "black on black violence" or the fact that black communities themselves often support tough-on-crime policies. I even read James Forman Jr's Racial Critiques of Mass Incarceration: Beyond the New Jim Crow, which is sometimes offered as a rebuttal to Alexander but actually largely agrees with her and praises her as the best of the "new Jim Crow" writers.

Yes, I'll say again there is plenty to protest about but nothing to riot about. As for welfare I'll let someone who created the system talk about it. It didn't create the problem only made it worse at times with incentives for men to just pay money to mothers of children instead of being fathers to children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action
http://www.c-span.org/video/?95001-1/welfare-reform-bill

There is a conspiracy of sorts, not of "a stunningly comprehensive and well-disguised system of racialized social control that functions in a manner strikingly similar to Jim Crow." run by black people in Baltimore and now the President of the United States but of a street level war on black violence that leads cops to abuse power when they don't care, thugs that don't care to abuse good citizens and the flight of anyone who can afford to move to leave because they don't care to live in a war zone. Keeping the 'lid on' the zone, stopping the spread of this cancer by doing what has to be done on the streets with a increasingly militarized police force is the logical result of a culture of violence begetting more violence with modern media feeding off the blood. Mass Incarceration was the solution chosen by the people over street battles.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

This was an interesting video

 

[nsaspook]

I'll share a video about how to stay out of prison and out of trouble with the cops. People are laughing because it's true.

NSFW language:

 

[Tobias Funke]

There is a conspiracy of sorts, not of "a stunningly comprehensive and well-disguised system of racialized social control that functions in a manner strikingly similar to Jim Crow." run by black people in Baltimore and now the President of the United States but of a street level war on black violence that leads cops to abuse power when they don't care, thugs that don't care to abuse good citizens and the flight of anyone who can afford to move to leave because they don't care to live in a war zone. Keeping the 'lid on' the zone, stopping the spread of this cancer by doing what has to be done on the streets with a increasingly militarized police force is the logical result of a culture of violence begetting more violence with modern media feeding off the blood. Mass Incarceration was the solution chosen by the people over street battles.

I would actually like an answer as to the cause of this black violence. If it's not a societal but a cultural problem, then what is there to protest about? I can't even pin down your thoughts on this. Cops who don't care abuse their power but a simple youtube video can stop black people from being killed by cops? Make up your mind.

 

[nsaspook]

I would actually like an answer as to the cause of this black violence. If it's not a societal but a cultural problem, then what is there to protest about? I can't even pin down your thoughts on this. Cops who don't care abuse their power but a simple youtube video can stop black people from being killed by cops? Make up your mind.

I've given my reasons on the pathology of black violence. No excuses for police abuse that should be protested about but a large percentage (some are innocents) of the people injured or killed in these abuses were not nice people just walking down the street. Their interaction was started by criminal activity.

 

[Czcibor]

So the question becomes, how do we rebuild the black family.

When you asked this question, in order to avoid an ideological minefield of racial relation in the USA, I started to think about examples that I know from Europe. How to change attitudes within society for more desirable ones?

Exhibit 1 - Roma (Gypsies) - in my regions there were attempts to integrate them from times of at least Austro-Hungarian monarchy. Over 100 years later, after monarchy, democracy, communism, and democracy back we still try to do it, this time requesting EU money.
Exhibit 2 - East Germany - Germans, which I consider as example of good organization, tried to rebuild East Germany after communist rule. With buildings it was easy, with people not. Its not only poorer, but if one for example look at election map 25 years after communism collapse there is still much higher support there for neo-Nazi.
Exhibit 3 - South Italy - poor, organized crime, and north Italy has nowadays separatist parties.

Honestly? I'm not specially optimist about your chances. Especially in short run.