News Baltimore riots after Freddie Gray funeral

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Riots erupted in Baltimore following the funeral of Freddie Gray, who died while in police custody, leading to significant violence, including the burning of police cars and looting. At least 15 police officers were injured, and multiple arrests were made. The unrest has sparked a debate about the appropriate police response and the effectiveness of peaceful protests versus violent actions. Some argue that the riots reflect a deep-seated frustration with systemic issues, including police brutality and social inequality, while others condemn the violence as counterproductive and criminal. The discussion highlights the complexity of the situation, with references to historical protests and the impact of socio-economic factors on community behavior. The role of media in shaping perceptions and responses to such events is also a point of contention, with some suggesting that sensationalized coverage can exacerbate tensions. Overall, the riots are seen as a manifestation of broader societal issues, including race relations, economic disparity, and the effectiveness of governmental responses to community grievances.
  • #91
nsaspook said:
I've given my reasons on the pathology of black violence. No excuses for police abuse that should be protested about but a large percentage (some are innocents) of the people injured or killed in these abuses were not nice people just walking down the street. Their interaction was started by criminal activity.

You've brought up welfare leading to broken families (you also said the families were unbreakable!?) and denied that there is any other reason, or at least dismissed any other one offered. I find that highly unlikely. And once again, you admit that there are people killed in police abuses but all you seem focused on is shifting the blame away from the police. Seems very one-sided to me.
 
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  • #92
Tobias Funke said:
You've brought up welfare leading to broken families (you also said the families were unbreakable!?) and denied that there is any other reason, or at least dismissed any other one offered. I find that highly unlikely. And once again, you admit that there are people killed in police abuses but all you seem focused on is shifting the blame away from the police. Seems very one-sided to me.

Our family was unbreakable because we were a complete family.

That's your take on it but I actually lived and went to 'Negro' grade school in segregation, in a southern town with 'whites only', been called the 'N' word to my face in class after segregation at the 'white' school, marched in Dallas during the civil rights movement, cried when MLK died, joined the military to escape Texas (and haven't been back for more than 30 days since), go to school on the VN era GI bill, work and raise a family of 4 kids. I've had plenty of time to think over how we got here and why while hearing every excuse for bad behavior. It only seems one-sided if you look at it in 2D, I've been there in 3D.
 
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  • #93
I live about 45 minutes west of downtown Baltimore. I have extended family who live in the city. The riots are very disturbing to me.

First, of those you see in the news, nearly everyone has an interest or a bias. I don't put much credence in what most of them say. In fact, aside of the Coroner's Report there are very few accounts worth believing. I will be interested to see what comes out in court.

Second, if you think these riots have anything to do with Freddie Gray, I would like to sell you the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. The Brooklyn Bridge has already been spoken for. There seems to be a contingent of people who follow peaceful but sizable political movements and use it as a context for uncivil behavior. We saw this with Occupy Wall Street, with Ferguson, and now with Baltimore. I'm not sure I understand what the movement in Ferguson was all about, but OWS and Baltimore started with legitimate concerns.

Like most, I am bothered about what happened to Mr. Gray. I don't care what his rap sheet looked like. I care that he was arrested for reasons that are not clear, that he was severely injured, and then that the police did so little to check and care for his condition. If there was wrong doing, I want it prosecuted. I say this not as any particular activist, but as a right-of-center Republican voter. I expect the police to act with the utmost professionalism. We give them great latitude to enforce the laws and in return I expect them to adhere to their oath to the Constitution.

Third, I am appalled by allegations that the mayor decided to let the rioting crowd continue while telling police to stand down. If this is true, Mayor Blake's career is finished. On the other hand, the police did do some things right. Keeping everyone inside Camden Yards baseball stadium while police took control of the situation was a wise move. Imagine the confrontation if 15000 people, trying to get away, fought with 1500 intent on mayhem. Things could have been very much worse than they turned out to be.

On a larger societal level, we have the slums of West Baltimore. Baltimore has been the recipient of incredible amounts of social welfare money over the years, and yet it only seems to perpetuate poverty. We keep feeding into this system and it continues to fail us. I'd happily spend all that money and more, if I thought it was helping people to get out of that situation, but I don't think that's the case.

Instead we have neighborhoods of broken families, generations of absent, imprisoned fathers, and mothers who are too busy or distracted to raise their children. Honestly, raising a child on your own is extremely difficult. It can be done, but it takes an extraordinary person and a helpful community. You won't find a whole lot of that going on in West Baltimore.

And so we ponder what just happened. This is more than just a rant about Freddie Gray's death. There is something much deeper going on here. Something that no amount of policing can fix. It is the poverty of the mind. On forums like this we often see people mock sky-God religions. However, this is a straw man argument. While the confusion between religion and science is commonplace among the ignorant, if you talk to religious authorities you will find that, aside of fundamentalists, most do not see any such contradiction.

Instead they seek to lead and teach people morality. This is something the State can not do. The reason so many fathers are absent is because they don't feel any sense of obligation or moral duty. The reason why crime is so commonplace is because without morality the equation becomes, "what can you get away with?" Unless one is of a religious institution, it is considered to be very impolite to teach such morality. But that's where things have to start. It is time to try some heavy duty evangelism.
 
  • #94
nsaspook said:
Our family was unbreakable because we were a complete family.

That's your take on it but I actually lived and went to 'Negro' grade school in segregation, in a southern town with 'whites only', been called the 'N' word to my face in class after segregation at the 'white' school, marched in Dallas during the civil rights movement, cried when MLK died, joined the military to escape Texas (and haven't been back for more than 30 days since), go to school on the VN era GI bill, work and raise a family of 4 kids. I've had plenty of time to think over how we got here and why. It only seems one-sided if you look at it in 2D, I've been there in 3D.

That's great (like, genuinely and not sarcastically), but it doesn't really address my post. So there are reasons to protest, and some people riot and that's bad. That's not exactly groundbreaking stuff. Was that not also the case in the 60s? What were those riots caused by? A culture of violence in the black community? Broken black families? If it was just the statistically unavoidable presence of people prone to do that, just as there would be in a white crowd, why isn't that simply the case now instead of some deep moral failure on the part of the black community?

edit: Also, I'm not discounting your own experiences being there in 3D. I just know that there are plenty of other people who have been there in 3D who come to very different conclusions, or at least acknowledge your point but recognize many other factors.
 
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  • #95
Rage to relief in Baltimore as 6 officers charged in death
http://news.yahoo.com/scant-details-gray-death-baltimore-protests-continue-070825135.html
 
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  • #96
Tobias Funke said:
edit: Also, I'm not discounting your own experiences being there in 3D. I just know that there are plenty of other people who have been there in 3D who come to very different conclusions, or at least acknowledge your point but recognize many other factors.

I know there are many other factors and different conclusions but just like in engineering you need to find the root cause to really fix the problem instead of adding interlocks like more money, more jails and more police to stop it when it goes crazy. We knew in the 60's this was going to happen so you're right, it's not exactly groundbreaking but it has to be said.
 
  • #97
JakeBrodskyPE said:
If this is true, Mayor Blake's career is finished.
Plenty of examples where rioting has been allowed to continue by mayors with little after effect on their careers. Sharon Pratt Dixon in DC, OWS mayors, off the top of my head.

The District’s mayor, Sharon Pratt Dixon, told the police to hold back from making arrests for looting because she feared it would antagonize the crowd and lead to more violence
 
  • #98
mheslep said:
Plenty of examples where rioting has been allowed to continue by mayors with little after effect on their careers. Sharon Pratt Dixon in DC, OWS mayors, off the top of my head.

We'll see how this pans out. Baltimore, unlike DC, is still struggling to bring in middle class people. These riots have not helped the cause. The city doesn't have nearly as much wealth to spare.
 
  • #99
Thousands expected in Baltimore rallies, now celebratory
http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-expected-baltimore-rallies-now-celebratory-070325145.html

The thousands of marchers who are expected to hit the streets this weekend will now do so to celebrate the decision by State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby to charge the officers with felonies ranging from assault to murder, and encourage continued peaceful demonstrations.
Meanwhile, elsewhere in the country - Clashes erupt in U.S. West Coast cities during May Day marches
http://news.yahoo.com/may-day-march-seattle-turns-violent-three-police-034406128.html

And rioting is supposed to help how?
 
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  • #100
Astronuc said:
Thousands expected in Baltimore rallies, now celebratory
http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-expected-baltimore-rallies-now-celebratory-070325145.html

This bothers me. They're acting as if the police have already been convicted. Professor Alan Dershowitz made an interesting point that the prosecutor's charges are not just over-the-top, but perhaps even unfounded in any reality. What will those crowds do when the six officers are acquitted of these ridiculous, over-the-top charges? And then, because of double-jeopardy they can't be charged for the same crime?

I can see charging them with neglect, possibly even a manslaughter charge here or there, but I don't see how any of this amounts to a murder charge.

I doubt we've seen the last of the demonstrations or even the riots.
 
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  • #101
JakeBrodskyPE said:
This bothers me. They're acting as if the police have already been convicted. Professor Alan Dershowitz made an interesting point that the prosecutor's charges are not just over-the-top, but perhaps even unfounded in any reality. What will those crowds do when the six officers are acquitted of these ridiculous, over-the-top charges? And then, because of double-jeopardy they can't be charged for the same crime?

I can see charging them with neglect, possibly even a manslaughter charge here or there, but I don't see how any of this amounts to a murder charge.

I doubt we've seen the last of the demonstrations or even the riots.
Yeah, you have to be smart when charging somebody with a crime. At best, I think you could get them for negligent homicide.
The problem is people think when cops encounter somebody and that person ends up dead, that means the cop went out that day thinking "I think I'm going to murder a man today." So in their minds, we have these evil cops on the street, and the state is protecting them. So charging them with murder is exactly what they think is going on; cops are murderous psychopaths and we finally caught them. And some may not know the difference between "charged" and "convicted."
I don't think much will happen if the trial drags on like the Zimmerman trial did. Give people time to cool off and they'll stop caring. What happened when Zimmerman was acquitted? Nothing, from what I remember.
 
  • #102
JakeBrodskyPE said:
This bothers me. They're acting as if the police have already been convicted. Professor Alan Dershowitz made an interesting point that the prosecutor's charges are not just over-the-top, but perhaps even unfounded in any reality. What will those crowds do when the six officers are acquitted of these ridiculous, over-the-top charges? And then, because of double-jeopardy they can't be charged for the same crime?

I can see charging them with neglect, possibly even a manslaughter charge here or there, but I don't see how any of this amounts to a murder charge.

I doubt we've seen the last of the demonstrations or even the riots.
Of course not. If you want to make a riot, then there would always be a proper excuse, like in Italy:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/milan-may-...pared-mafia-says-italian-rapper-fedez-1499412

(They did not have police brutality, so had to protest against Expo)
 
  • #103
leroyjenkens said:
The problem is people think when cops encounter somebody and that person ends up dead, that means the cop went out that day thinking "I think I'm going to murder a man today." So in their minds, we have these evil cops on the street, and the state is protecting them. So charging them with murder is exactly what they think is going on; cops are murderous psychopaths and we finally caught them. And some may not know the difference between "charged" and "convicted."

Yes, that is what those strawmen think.
 
  • #104
Astronuc said:
Meanwhile, elsewhere in the country - Clashes erupt in U.S. West Coast cities during May Day marches
http://news.yahoo.com/may-day-march-seattle-turns-violent-three-police-034406128.html

And rioting is supposed to help how?

We had a few locally in Portland. Most of the violence was started by the anarchist cult, a special breed of 'power of destruction' crazy that lives here.
freechickenstripstumblr_lsx2mbsiqg1ql47g0o1_500.jpg
 
  • #105
Tobias Funke said:
Yes, that is what those strawmen think.
I've talked to those strawmen.
 
  • #106
leroyjenkens said:
I've talked to those strawmen.

Good anecdotal evidence of what "people" [weasel words--what people?] think. Always welcome on PF.

You're wrong though. People actually think that when someone is negligent (at best) and someone dies as a result they should be charged with a crime. They know the difference between "charged" and "convicted". They like purple mittens. I've talked to them!
 
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  • #107
Tobias Funke said:
Good anecdotal evidence of what "people" [weasel words--what people?] think. Always welcome on PF.

You're wrong though. People actually think that when someone is negligent (at best) and someone dies as a result they should be charged with a crime. They know the difference between "charged" and "convicted". They like purple mittens. I've talked to them!
Yes, people think that way too. I don't know how to scientifically prove what someone is thinking, so I have to go by what they say. Thoughts can only manifest as words. Whether or not that's what they're thinking is impossible to know.
 
  • #108
leroyjenkens said:
Yes, people think that way too. I don't know how to scientifically prove what someone is thinking, so I have to go by what they say. Thoughts can only manifest as words. Whether or not that's what they're thinking is impossible to know.

The issue I had with your post was that you strongly implied that you were describing a typical person celebrating the charges. I can't prove that's what you wanted to do any more than you can prove what someone is thinking, but it was yet another one-sided view. I think the people in Baltimore understand much more about the situation than any of us do, yet the conservatives only want everyone to remain silent until we have all the information to the point that it suits them; notice how nobody responded with their typical faux-neutrality when people criticized the charges as being too severe.
 
  • #109
Tobias Funke said:
The issue I had with your post was that you strongly implied that you were describing a typical person celebrating the charges. I can't prove that's what you wanted to do any more than you can prove what someone is thinking, but it was yet another one-sided view. I think the people in Baltimore understand much more about the situation than any of us do, yet the conservatives only want everyone to remain silent until we have all the information to the point that it suits them; notice how nobody responded with their typical faux-neutrality when people criticized the charges as being too severe.
I can't say what the typical person celebrating the charges is thinking, but I'm betting there's some of those people I described in the mix. And I'm not sure one person can express anything other than a one-sided view, unless they have multiple personalities disorder.

The people of Baltimore understand much more about the Freddie Gray incident than we do? I don't see how that's necessarily true.
 
  • #110
leroyjenkens said:
I can't say what the typical person celebrating the charges is thinking, but I'm betting there's some of those people I described in the mix. And I'm not sure one person can express anything other than a one-sided view, unless they have multiple personalities disorder.

The people of Baltimore understand much more about the Freddie Gray incident than we do? I don't see how that's necessarily true.

This is bigger than the one isolated case of Freddie Gray. The people who react strongly are probably having an emotional reaction based on their own experiences with the police and/or justice system.
 
  • #111
lisab said:
This is bigger than the one isolated case of Freddie Gray. The people who react strongly are probably having an emotional reaction based on their own experiences with the police and/or justice system.
I'm sure that's true, but unfortunately the only people who can fix it are the rioters and the community that creates them. Unless...

I read an article that discussed - from actual tests and stats - just how effective a reduction in policing was at reducing anti-police complaints (duh). So the other potential solution is to just disband the Baltimore (NYC, Ferguson, Philadelphia, Detroit, LA...) police force and let the city descend into anarchy. Then the "problem" of dissatisfaction with police interactions would go away completely!
 
  • #112
leroyjenkens said:
I can't say what the typical person celebrating the charges is thinking, but I'm betting there's some of those people I described in the mix. And I'm not sure one person can express anything other than a one-sided view, unless they have multiple personalities disorder.

I think one person certainly can, but at any rate, an entire thread can. This thread has been pretty one-sided.

leroyjenkens said:
The people of Baltimore understand much more about the Freddie Gray incident than we do? I don't see how that's necessarily true.

Well, they probably understand that only one officer was actually charged with murder (along with numerous lesser charges). The rest were charged with various degrees of assault or involuntary manslaughter. Nothing about your post leads me to believe that you knew that.
 
  • #113
This is bigger than the one isolated case of Freddie Gray. The people who react strongly are probably having an emotional reaction based on their own experiences with the police and/or justice system.
I'd bet very few of them have personally been treated unjustly by the police.
Well, they probably understand that only one officer was actually charged with murder (along with numerous lesser charges).
It's hypocritical to criticize a person for assuming what's in the head of other people and then going ahead and doing that very same thing yourself.
The rest were charged with various degrees of assault or involuntary manslaughter. Nothing about your post leads me to believe that you knew that.
I'm not here to boast about my knowledge; I know very little. "We" encompasses a lot more people than just me.
 
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  • #114
Greg Bernhardt said:
I need to read up on this topic. I've heard it referenced a lot, but don't know anything about it. Sounds very interesting.
I too am interested in this topic... Someone should start a discussion about it.
 
  • #115
Muti said:
I too am interested in this topic... Someone should start a discussion about it.
Curiously when I google search it, mostly conservative blogs are listed.
 
  • #116
leroyjenkens said:
I'm not here to boast about my knowledge; I know very little. "We" encompasses a lot more people than just me.

Then why post confidently about what people think?

Greg Bernhardt said:
Curiously when I google search it, mostly conservative blogs are listed.

Is it really that curious?
 
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  • #117
Very good intro for a dialog on such a sensitive issue, Astronuc. My congratulations. Direct and honest dialog is very much needed in situations such as this. As lisab say's "This is bigger than the one isolated case of Freddie Gray". Of course, language communication has it’s own problems (as N Chomsky mentioned succinctly in his Google Talk 2014, 13:50) On the other hand, it is difficult to think about effective communication without language. When there can be friendly, honest and direct communication with people who feel that they have been directly vicitimized because of race and those who have been privilaged because of race there might be the beginning of a change in perspectives. The two groups are in it together.
 
  • #118
I am going to say things that may get taken the wrong way, so please read carefully:

I am "privileged." Most who post here are of that ilk. We're privileged because we grew up in reasonably whole families, in communities that cared for us, and that we were able to learn the lessons our society cares most about. At one point in our lives, my parents and I were on welfare. The difference between us and many people in West Baltimore is that we had ambition, a religious sense of duty, and a feeling that we weren't going to stay this way.

This is not about money. This is not about race. This is about a state of mind, and a culture of utter despair. As one of those horrible, evil, tax-paying Republicans, I hate to see tax money wasted. Note how I wrote that. I'm not opposed to paying the taxes, or spending the money. I want to see a return on the investment. I want to see those people in Baltimore become productive, prosperous people. I want them paying taxes too. I want them to feel a sense of ownership in the city and its services too.

There have been other minorities who have washed through the city in the past. Yes, they were poor, but they all had strong community, a sense of duty, and a commitment to building a better future. This one lacks that drive in many ways.

The question we have to ask is not just one of language, but means. How can we instill that sense of community, commitment to the future, and ethics to people that have so little to begin with? Until we answer that question, we can throw more money at them than we can afford, and it still won't make any difference.
 
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  • #119
Thank you, JakeBrodskyPE, for what appears to me to be your honest thoughts on the conversation that I raised above. I can certainly see that "state of mind", despair, anger and a belief that things have not gotten better would be the background for the recent destruction in Baltimore. I've only been to Baltimore once many years ago to visit a Black friend who had finished his graduate degree at Oxford (in England) so I guess that he does not count. I know no other people in Baltimore (that I am aware of). I assume that you do know "many people in West Baltimore" who were part of the protest group. Am I correct in paraphrasing you to say that these people have (1) no ambition, (2) have a culture of utter despair and (3) lack drive? I'm not sure what a "religious sense of duty" would look like. This is enough for now and I've only dealt with your first paragraph! Maybe the second paragraph next time. I shall continue to read your responses carefully but I cannot guarantee that we will arrive at the same meaning.
 
  • #120
Tobias Funke said:
Then why post confidently about what people think?
What is issue with most of peoples here... I admit most of peoples are very knowledgeable and that is why it is their right to ridicule anyone based on their thinking that being more knowledgeable they have a right. Preaching freedom of speech and unable of to listen to anything they consider wrong. Wow ... Lastly if we have a few more of such enlightened peoples we may have first no animals left in this world because animals can not solve mathematics and physics question. Then ...
 

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