News Barack Obama vs John McCain: Can Dems Avoid Defeat?

[seycyrus]

...
It's not a insult, it's a fact. If you choose to take your allegiance to the right as an insult, then that's your problem.

I'm sorry, but it is *not* a fact. I am not a groupie.

Perhaps your "I'm not like you..., I'm not ***" insinuations work for you in scoring points with your juvenile friends, but I see right through it.

 

[seycyrus]

Seycyrus, who do you want to hold accountable for what the campaign spokespersons say?

Gokul, on matters of policy and such I certainly feel that staffers speak for their candidate. But I do not hold the candidate personally responsible for every little quip.

Do you not think that we need to differentiate between "Putin said &&&" and "A guy on Putin's staff said &&&"? At the very least for the sake of clarity?

The argument being presented is that there is no difference *at all*. Are we going to apply this same standard to everybody, or just to people we dislike?

I believe that Obama is going to win the election. I for one will not applying this loose interpretation of "who said what", to everything anyone in his administration says.

 

[isly ilwott]

ANYONE who serves in combat is a hero. Period. I quote from the official record. Not something made up by the politically motivated:

The official records are not generated for political reasons. They are examined by those who want to know the truth about claims such as he made. I went through all this mess on another forum years ago. It is documented. Kerry's pin prick, band-aid wound got him one of his Purple Hearts.

 

[wildman]

The official records are not generated for political reasons. They are examined by those who want to know the truth about claims such as he made. I went through all this mess on another forum years ago. It is documented. Kerry's pin prick, band-aid wound got him one of his Purple Hearts.

100% of the enlisted men who served under Kerry support his decorations and his heroism. Yes that is 100%. I take that as A LOT more credible than some officers who didn't speak up at the time and now suddenly have found Jesus.

Ok. I made a fat target for you. But it has to be enlisted men who were actually serving under him. Not like the swift boat officers who were miles away from him when any of this happened.

 

[jaap de vries]

I think the democrats have shown a lot more class by acknowledging McCain’s heroism during the Vietnam War. It is sad that the same amount of decency is not given to Kerry. It is almost as if the democrats are held by a higher moral standard by both the Dems and the republicans.
The choice is very simple. If you think things are going well now, vote McCain. If you think things should change, vote Obama.
If the Dems are going to loose this election they might as well give up as a party.

 

[isly ilwott]

100% of the enlisted men who served under Kerry support his decorations and his heroism. Yes that is 100%.

Hearsay at best.

I take that as A LOT more credible than some officers who didn't speak up at the time and now suddenly have found Jesus.

Opinion.

Ok. I made a fat target for you. But it has to be enlisted men who were actually serving under him. Not like the swift boat officers who were miles away from him when any of this happened.

I wouldn't spend 10 seconds trying to verify what you say here...and he (Kerry) didn't spend Christmas in Cambodia.




http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39889

Read all about the band-aid Purple Heart.

I don't doubt that Kerry displayed some valor during his stint in Vietnam. Maybe he deserved two of the Purple Hearts. Maybe he deserved the Silver Star. He just didn't deserve the Presidency...that's why he lost the election.

 

[isly ilwott]

I think the democrats have shown a lot more class by acknowledging McCain’s heroism during the Vietnam War. It is sad that the same amount of decency is not given to Kerry. It is almost as if the democrats are held by a higher moral standard by both the Dems and the republicans.
The choice is very simple. If you think things are going well now, vote McCain. If you think things should change, vote Obama.
If the Dems are going to loose this election they might as well give up as a party.

If a man tells the truth about his past, no amount of questioning can negate that truth. The truth is that John Kerry lied to us. Detailed, extensive questioning of the statements and claims of a Presidential candidate is to be expected.

 

[wildman]

I don't doubt that Kerry displayed some valor during his stint in Vietnam. Maybe he deserved two of the Purple Hearts. Maybe he deserved the Silver Star. He just didn't deserve the Presidency...that's why he lost the election.

Good enough for me. I don't really care whether he deserved the Presidency or not. My motivation is not political.

Here is some interesting reading on the subject in the Snopes Urban Legends page:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

 

[isly ilwott]

Good enough for me. I don't really care whether he deserved the Presidency or not. My motivation is not political.

Here is some interesting reading on the subject in the Snopes Urban Legends page:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

I found that, too...not very impressive...and it does not refute the second effort of Mr. Kerry to have his minor wound qualify for a Purple Heart.

 

[wildman]

I found that, too...not very impressive...and it does not refute the second effort of Mr. Kerry to have his minor wound qualify for a Purple Heart.

You know, in the end, the size of the wound is irrelevant. The reason that the Purple Heart is a prestigious decoration has nothing to do with the wound. Any fool can get himself wounded. No, it is a demonstration that one was in the heat of combat. You don't get combat wounds serving as a desk jockey. Purple Hearts are handed out all the time for minor wounds. It is not unusual for combat vets from WW II to have 5 or more Purple Hearts. It is obvious that their wounds were not all that serious or they would have survived long enough to receive that many decorations.

The thing that upsets me is the dishonorable manner that Bush behaved. He was after all basically a draft dodger (the National Guard was used to dodge the draft by rich connected men). I voted for him in 2000, but after the swift boats, I decided that I couldn't in good conscience vote for him in 2004.

 

[turbo]

One thing missing from this discussion is how incredibly dangerous service on those small boats was. My HS girlfriend's older brother was a non-com on one of those boats, and they lost crew-members to ambush several times. Those rivers were bordered with lush vegetation and a place that they traversed without incident one day could be a hell-hole of enemy fire the next. I was not in favor of the Vietnam War, but the men who felt the duty to serve in it (especially in very risky roles) have my undying respect. BTW, My GF's brother was a bully and an arrogant jerk during our time together in the Boy Scouts and in school. I still respect his service.

One of my former co-workers was a Navy Seal who served as a forward observer for naval gunnery. He was inserted into hostile territory, conducted surveillance, and called in fire from the big battleships. Eventually, the NV forces would start to figure out where he might be, and start searching. He'd scram out of there, after calling in fire on his own position. He was one of the most quiet, unassuming men I have ever met, and he only told me of his war-time experiences after working together for months, and then usually only on our quiet lunch-breaks on the midnight shift.

I wouldn't care if either of these guys got a Purple Heart because they caught a small piece of shrapnel that required only a bit of antibiotic salve and a band-aid. I've heard that my former co-worker was highly decorated, but I didn't feel entitled to ask and he never volunteered the information.

 

[BobG]

Obama is a much stronger candidate than Kerry. Kerry's record on the war was not at all impressive when you look at the total package, which included his extremist anti-war views and associations at the end of the war. The handful of relatively minor medals he got could not possibly overcome that.

Even that aside, Kerry was at best a mediocre candidate. He wasn't charismatic, he looked unhealthy, and he did not inspire confidence or inspiration. Bush won a battle of the mediocres.

Both Obama and McCain are probably the strongest candidates we've seen in my lifetime. Either would defeat any of the candidates the other party has put up in the past 30 years, with the possible exception of Reagan.

I agree. Whichever side wins, history is made.

This is looking to be the most fun election in my lifetime. I've never seen an election with two good candidates before. Usually, the only reason elections are close are because both candidates suck.

100% of the enlisted men who served under Kerry support his decorations and his heroism. Yes that is 100%. I take that as A LOT more credible than some officers who didn't speak up at the time and now suddenly have found Jesus.

Ok. I made a fat target for you. But it has to be enlisted men who were actually serving under him. Not like the swift boat officers who were miles away from him when any of this happened.

Actually, one of the Swift Boat officers, John Clayton Lee, won a medal in one of the same battles that Kerry won one of his. On the other hand, Lee didn't feel either his or Kerry's medals were undeserved for that particular battle. Lee's beef was the cheap medals Kerry won in other battles - battles Lee wasn't present at.

And one of Kerry's crewmembers, Steven Gardner, was one of the Swift Boat Vets, but he was a crewmember at a different time period than the period that Kerry won his medals in.

Your point is still valid though.

The whole Swift Boat Vet commercial series was something that was condemned even by many Republicans, including, and perhaps even more strongly, by John McCain.

 

[Gokul43201]

Gokul, on matters of policy and such I certainly feel that staffers speak for their candidate. But I do not hold the candidate personally responsible for every little quip.

Do you not think that we need to differentiate between "Putin said &&&" and "A guy on Putin's staff said &&&"? At the very least for the sake of clarity?

I agree there's a difference, particularly if it is one member of the campaign that goes off on his/her own and says something that is counter to what the campaign stands for. But when it comes out of more than one campaign spokesperson, and looks more like campaign strategy than loose cannonism, then you must hold the candidate responsible, mustn't you?

When we speak of what Obama or McCain have said during the campaign, we are really talking about what their campaigns are saying. You can't just let your campaign staff and advisors do the dirty work for you and expect none of that dirt to stick to you.