Before Big Bang: What Surrounds the Singularity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of what exists surrounding the singularity before the Big Bang, exploring ideas related to space, time, and the nature of the universe. Participants examine theoretical implications, misconceptions, and the definitions of void, space, and time in the context of cosmology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that void exists as a background surrounding the singularity before the Big Bang, suggesting that space is merely empty space.
  • Others argue that since the universe encompasses everything, there is no void for it to expand into, and the concept of "before" the Big Bang is meaningless.
  • Several participants emphasize that time is an observed phenomenon and cannot exist without changes or objects, leading to the assertion that there is no time or space before the Big Bang.
  • Some participants challenge the notion of a singularity, suggesting it may represent a breakdown in our understanding of physics rather than an actual state of existence.
  • There are claims that current mainstream models do not support the idea of the universe existing within a void, and such a view is inconsistent with contemporary understanding of space and time.
  • Discussions also touch on the nature of matter and energy, with some asserting that matter is eternal while others clarify that matter is not conserved in the same way energy is.
  • Participants explore the idea that the singularity occurs everywhere in space, and that space is part of a broader framework known as spacetime.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing views on the nature of void, space, time, and the singularity. Participants express differing opinions on whether void can exist and the implications of a singularity in cosmology.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying definitions of void, space, and time, as well as differing interpretations of the Big Bang theory and its implications for the nature of the universe.

Mohd Abdullah
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Hey guys,

It is widely publicized that space and time originated during the Big Bang, but what exactly surrounds this lone hot and dense singularity? Space is the background of something, so I think void (which is just empty space) is already there even "before" the Big Bang event started occurring.

Thoughts?
 
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It's a common misconception you are operating under: since the universe is everything, there is no void for it to expand into, nor is there a "before".
 
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russ_watters said:
It's a common misconception you are operating under: since the universe is everything, there is no void for it to expand into, nor is there a "before".

Time is an observed phenomenon, by means of which human beings sense and record changes in the environment and in the universe. There is no humans "before" the Big Bang event started so the term "time" is useless, not to mention there are no changes "before" the singularity started to expand. Space is the distance between objects, once again there are no objects back then "before" Big Bang so the term "space" can't be used. If there is no changes (such as motion, object changing, etc.), then there is no time.

What I mean by void, is the background of something. Let us assume, there is this singularity that will eventually expand and become the nowadays' universe. What "surround" this singularity, I think, is the void.
 
It's important to understand that the singularity most likely appears because we don't understand physics at the extreme temperature and density of the very early universe, not necessarily because there was an actual singularity. In any case, at t=0 the entirety of the universe exists as a singularity, not a single point.
 
Drakkith said:
It's important to understand that the singularity most likely appears because we don't understand physics at the extreme temperature and density of the very early universe, not necessarily because there was an actual singularity. In any case, at t=0 the entirety of the universe exists as a singularity, not a single point.

I see. In your opinion, does space originated from the singularity? Space has no shape, unlike object which is something that has shape and must be necessarily finite, same with energy. I define space as the distance between objects. And if there are no objects, it is only void there. Nonexistence. So, I think what "surround" the pre-BB singularity is the void.
 
Mohd Abdullah said:
Time is an observed phenomenon, by means of which human beings sense and record changes in the environment and in the universe. There is no humans "before" the Big Bang event started so the term "time" is useless...
No, it's not. Just because there were no human constructed clocks available doesn't mean we can't use other processes to tell time.
Space is the distance between objects, once again there are no objects back then "before" Big Bang so the term "space" can't be used. If there is no changes (such as motion, object changing, etc.), then there is no time.
So...I guess we're agreed now: no space or time before the Big Bang.
What I mean by void, is the background of something. Let us assume, there is this singularity that will eventually expand and become the nowadays' universe. What "surround" this singularity, I think, is the void.
Nope. Singularity or not, there is no "void". If there was a void into which everything else is expanding, it would be considered part of the universe.
 
russ_watters said:
No, it's not. Just because there were no human constructed clocks available doesn't mean we can't use other processes to tell time.

So...I guess we're agreed now: no space or time before the Big Bang.

Nope. Singularity or not, there is no "void". If there was a void into which everything else is expanding, it would be considered part of the universe.

If void is considered to be a part of the Universe, then it is unimaginable or impossible for void to be finite because void is that which has no shape. Only that which has shape is finite, such as the atoms, planets, etc.

What are the other processes that can be done to tell time?
 
Mohd Abdullah said:
In your opinion, does space originated from the singularity?

No, because the singularity is most likely just a breakdown in our ability to model the universe, not an actual state of existence.

Mohd Abdullah said:
Space has no shape, unlike object which is something that has shape and must be necessarily finite, same with energy. I define space as the distance between objects. And if there are no objects, it is only void there. Nonexistence. So, I think what "surround" the pre-BB singularity is the void.

Current mainstream models do not place the universe within a "void" like you're describing and any such view is logically inconsistent with itself given our current understanding of space, time, and causality.
 
Drakkith said:
No, because the singularity is most likely just a breakdown in our ability to model the universe, not an actual state of existence.
Current mainstream models do not place the universe within a "void" like you're describing and any such view is logically inconsistent with itself given our current understanding of space, time, and causality.

I agree with your 1st answer.

So, matter is eternal together with energy. I can't imagine that the singularity don't happen in a "place". Can you give your opinions about this? What is space in the context of Big Bang theory?
 
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Mohd Abdullah said:
If void is considered to be a part of the Universe, then it is unimaginable or impossible for void to be finite because void is that which has no shape. Only that which has shape is finite, such as the atoms, planets, etc.
Nonsense. A void can take any shape it or we want. I cup my hands and inside (by volume, to within a fraction of a percent) is a region of totally empty space. A void. How would you tell the difference between that and a section of the "void" you describe?

Also, you haven't said so, but I'm guessing you think the universe is spherical? It isnt.
What are the other processes that can be done to tell time?
Any process that takes a known amount of time can be used to tell time. As you say, motion is one example (that's how the universe is aged). Stellar evolution is another.
 
  • #11
Mohd Abdullah said:
So, matter is eternal together with energy.

Matter isn't conserved, unlike energy.

Mohd Abdullah said:
I can't imagine that the singularity don't happen in a "place". Can you give your opinions about this? What is space in the context of Big Bang theory?

The singularity happens everywhere. At all points in space.

In the BBT, space is one part of spacetime, which is a way of modeling the universe that leads to useful predictions. I could tell you what spacetime is in a mathematical sense (I believe it's a certain type of manifold) but there's no real way to describe it accurately using non-mathematical terminology. Many call it a "framework". I suppose that's as accurate as you can get without getting into math.
 
  • #12
Mohd Abdullah said:
It is widely publicized that space and time originated during the Big Bang

Please give specific references, and not pop science ones. There are a lot of pop science treatments of this topic that can be confusing or misleading. If you have acceptable references and provide them to me by PM, we can consider reopening the thread. Until then, this thread is closed.
 

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