Bernoulli's equation and high velocity flights

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the applicability of Bernoulli's equation in the context of high-velocity flights, particularly focusing on the effects of air compression and the generation of lift in supersonic and subsonic conditions. Participants explore theoretical implications, limitations, and alternative models relevant to fluid dynamics in aviation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that Bernoulli's equation is a conservation-of-energy equation that does not account for changes in density due to compression, which is significant in high-velocity flights.
  • Others argue that Bernoulli's equation applies only to non-viscous flow and that its assumptions break down under conditions of turbulence and compressibility.
  • A participant mentions that there is a form of Bernoulli's equation that accommodates compression and expansion, highlighting that density decreases during expansion and increases during compression.
  • Concerns are raised about Bernoulli's equation's inability to address internal energy changes and shock waves in supersonic flows, suggesting that the more generalized Navier-Stokes equations are more appropriate, albeit complex to solve.
  • One participant questions how lift is generated in supersonic aircraft, given that Bernoulli's equation does not apply to supersonic conditions.
  • Another participant clarifies that lift is generated by the downward acceleration of air, while Bernoulli's equation primarily describes the relationship between pressure and speed after pressure differentials are established.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the applicability of Bernoulli's equation in high-velocity flights, particularly in relation to compressibility and turbulence. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the best approach to understanding lift generation in these contexts.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the assumptions of incompressibility and non-viscous flow in Bernoulli's equation, as well as the unresolved complexities introduced by turbulence and shock waves in supersonic conditions.

waynetan
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
why can't we use bernoulli's equation for high velocity flights ? what changes when air is compressed ? does density change ?
 
Science news on Phys.org
Welcome to PF!

Hi waynetan ! Welcome to PF! :smile:

Yes, "compressible" means that its density changes, and that change of density either consumes or liberates energy. Since Bernoulli's equation is a conservation-of-energy equation, that change in energy has to be taken into account.

(Also, Bernoulli's equation only applies to non-viscous flow.)

From the PF Library on Bernoulli's equation …
Bernoulli's equation for steady compressible inviscous flow:
kinetic energy per mass plus potential energy per mass plus enthalpy per mass is the same (is conserved) along any streamline of a flow.

Bernoulli's equation along any streamline of a steady non-viscous flow with variable internal energy (and therefore compressible):

P\ +\ \frac{1}{2}\,\rho\,v^2\ +\ \rho\,g\,h\ +\ \rho\,\epsilon\ =\ constant

or:

\frac{1}{2}\,\rho\,v^2\ +\ \rho\,g\,h\ +\ \text{enthalpy per unit mass}\ =\ constant


\epsilon is the internal energy per unit mass, or specific internal energy (s.i.e)

Incompressible flow:

Incompressible flow is flow whose density is constant along any streamline. In such flow, internal energy may be omitted from Bernoulli's equation (in other words, enthalpy per unit mass may be omitted, and replaced by pressure).

For incompressible flow, internal energy per mass is constant, and so for steady inviscous flow, pressure plus the external energy density must be constant along any streamline:

P\ +\ \frac{1}{2}\,\rho\,v^2\ +\ \rho\,g\,h\ =\ constant
 
waynetan said:
What changes when air is compressed? does density change ?
There is a form of Bernoulli's equation that handles compression and expansion. The density changes, lower during expansion, greater during compression. Since pressure is energy per unit volume, as opposed to energy per unit mass, it's affected by density. The terms in Bernoulli's equation include a pressure term, and two other terms multiplied by density (instead of mass).

Why can't we use bernoulli's equation for high velocity flights?
Bernoulli is a simplied model that doesn't deal with factors like turbulent flow. It doesn't account for the internal energy of the eddies in a turbulent flow. It doesn't account for temperature changes due to compression or expansion of air. It doesn't deal with supersonic flows that involved shock waves. The more generalized Navier Stokes equations handle most of this, but generally they can't be solved, so an airfoil model uses some simplication of Navier Stokes.
 
since the Bernoulli's equation does not apply to supersonic flights, then how is lift generated at supersonic and subsonic speeds in supersonic aircraft with thin airfoil ?
 
At a macroscopic scale, lift is generated when air is accelerated downwards (and drag is generated with air is acclerated forwards). Bernoulli doesn't explain how pressure differentials around a wing are created by the interaction between the wing and the air, only how the air responds internally once the pressure differentials exist. Bernoulli is mostly about the obvious fact that air will accelerate from higher presssure zones to lower pressure zones, and Bernoulli's equation approximates the relationship between speed and pressure (and optionally density) during this transition, ignoring issues like turbulence.

There are many web sites that describe how wings generate lift, with some conflictling view points and various levels of detail. This site does a good job of explaining lift without getting too carried away with details. There are plenty of other good web sites as well, but this one is a good starting point, and includes a pair of diagrams showing how the air is affected as a wing travels through it.

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/183261-1.html
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K