Bicycle physics: Keeping balanced....

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the physics of maintaining balance on a bicycle, particularly the differences in stability when the bicycle is in motion versus at rest. Participants explore various factors contributing to bicycle stability, including gyroscopic effects, steering, and the role of the rider.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the gyroscopic effect of the rotating wheels helps maintain balance by resisting changes in their axis of rotation.
  • Others argue that while the gyroscopic effect plays a role, it is not the sole factor in bicycle stability, especially in the absence of a rider.
  • A few participants mention that stability is dependent on velocity, suggesting that the gyroscopic effect is negligible at low speeds.
  • One participant suggests conducting an experiment to compare the effort required to tip a stationary bike versus one with spinning wheels.
  • There are mentions of additional factors contributing to stability, as highlighted in a referenced video, indicating a more complex explanation than just the gyroscopic effect.
  • Some participants discuss the relationship between steering and balance, noting that the rider's actions are crucial in maintaining stability while in motion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the factors that contribute to bicycle stability, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with no consensus on the primary explanation.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of stability and the complexity of interactions between various factors such as gyroscopic effects, rider input, and velocity, which are not fully resolved in the discussion.

Delta2
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Messages
6,002
Reaction score
2,628
So my main question is why we maintain balance easily when the bicycle has some horizontal velocity, but it isn't the same when bicycle is at rest.

The best answer I could find at the web is that when the bicycle wheels rotate, essentially they form gyroscopes and gyroscopes resist the change in their axis of rotation (they tend to keep their axis parallel with respect to the ground).

Is this the answer to my question or not?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Delta2 said:
So my main question is why we maintain balance easily when the bicycle has some horizontal velocity, but it isn't the same when bicycle is at rest.

The best answer I could find at the web is that when the bicycle wheels rotate, essentially they form gyroscopes and gyroscopes resist the change in their axis of rotation (they tend to keep their axis parallel with respect to the ground).

Is this the answer to my question or not?
Not really. The gyroscopic precession plays a role in steering the front wheel into the lean, if you don't hold the handles. But it's not the whole story. See videos below.

But if you are steering, then it's you who is steering to straighten up the bicycle. And that doesn't work if the bicycle is not moving.

 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban, Ibix and PeroK
So I see the real explanation is a bit more complex, video 2 mentions 3 factors that combined are what makes the bicycle stable
 
I think it would be a good exercise to write down equations of coin's rolling without slipping on a horizontal table and study stability of its straight vertical motion in the linear approximation.

to begin with:

Screenshot from 2021-07-02 08-41-29.png
Screenshot from 2021-07-02 08-41-53.png
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ergospherical and Delta2
Delta2 said:
So I see the real explanation is a bit more complex, video 2 mentions 3 factors that combined are what makes the bicycle stable
The gyroscope effect might be relevant to the bicycle itself, but must be fairly negligible if we compare the mass of the wheels to the rider.
 
PeroK said:
The gyroscope effect might be relevant to the bicycle itself, but must be fairly negligible if we compare the mass of the wheels to the rider.
According to video 2 the gyroscope effect alone can't explain the stability of the bike (in the absence of a rider).
 
PeroK said:
The gyroscope effect might be relevant to the bicycle itself, but must be fairly negligible if we compare the mass of the wheels to the rider.
is not the stability\instability dependent on the velocity?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PeroK
wrobel said:
is not the stability\instability dependent on the velocity?
That's true. More precisely, the gyroscope effect must be negligible at low speeds.
 
We could try an experiment.

1) Turn a bike upside down, so that it is resting on its handlebars and seat.

2) See how much effort it takes to tip the bike over.

3) Spin the wheels as fast as possible and repeat step 2).
 
  • #10
PeroK said:
The gyroscope effect might be relevant to the bicycle itself, but must be fairly negligible if we compare the mass of the wheels to the rider.
The gyroscope effect is about steering the front wheel into the lean, not about holding up the entire bike.
 
  • #11
##\boldsymbol{q} = (x,y,\varphi,\psi, \theta)##\begin{align*}

\dfrac{d}{dt} \left( \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{\boldsymbol{q}}} \right) - \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial \boldsymbol{q}} = \lambda \begin{pmatrix} 1 \\ 0 \\ 0 \\ R\cos{\varphi} \\ 0 \end{pmatrix} + \mu \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 1 \\ 0 \\ R\sin{\varphi} \\ 0 \end{pmatrix}

\end{align*}Too tired to evaluate the gradients.
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: wrobel and Delta2
  • #12
Delta2 said:
So my main question is why we maintain balance easily when the bicycle has some horizontal velocity, but it isn't the same when bicycle is at rest.

The best answer I could find at the web is that when the bicycle wheels rotate, essentially they form gyroscopes and gyroscopes resist the change in their axis of rotation (they tend to keep their axis parallel with respect to the ground).

Is this the answer to my question or not?
The gyroscopic effect resists any roll of the wheels, steering movements and from leaned to vertical as well: it is not inducing verticallity of the chassis.

Please, see:
http://ezramagazine.cornell.edu/SUMMER11/ResearchSpotlight.html

The rider must steer in the right direction in order to keep the moving bike from falling over.

 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Delta2
  • #13
ergospherical said:
##\boldsymbol{q} = (x,y,\varphi,\psi, \theta)##\begin{align*}

\dfrac{d}{dt} \left( \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{\boldsymbol{q}}} \right) - \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial \boldsymbol{q}} = \lambda \begin{pmatrix} 1 \\ 0 \\ 0 \\ R\cos{\varphi} \\ 0 \end{pmatrix} + \mu \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 1 \\ 0 \\ R\sin{\varphi} \\ 0 \end{pmatrix}

\end{align*}Too tired to evaluate the gradients.
I would use D'Alambert-Lagrange
$$[L]_\theta:=\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot\theta}-\frac{\partial L}{\partial \theta},$$
$$[L]_\theta\delta\theta+[L]_\psi\delta\psi+[L]_\varphi\delta\varphi+[L]_x\delta x+[L]_y\delta y=0$$
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ergospherical
  • #14
$$\{(\delta\theta,\delta\psi,\delta\varphi,\delta x,\delta y)\}=span(a,b,c)$$
$$a=(1,0,0,0,0),\quad b=(0,0,1,0,0)$$
$$c=(0,1,0,-R\cos\varphi,-R\sin\varphi)$$
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ergospherical
  • #15
Hold a yard stick or meter stick vertical in your open hand. Now move your hand so as to try and keep the stick vertical, similar effect when you steer a bike? When you steer a bike you are shifting the bike under your center of mass?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban

Similar threads

  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
5K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 49 ·
2
Replies
49
Views
8K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
786
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K