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Than without the turbine? The temperature drop should generally be more with the turbine I believe...but you are also reducing the exit speed, so I'm not sure how this fits with what you were trying to do before.T C said:
Blower fitted with De Laval Nozzle
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T C
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This is a new question. As the thread is still alive; that's why I have posted that in this thread for quick response. This has nothing to do with the question with which I have started this thread.
T C
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Another question just comes to mind against post 19 here. In case of an ideal/reversible process, can we say that if we have air/gas at 108 k temp and 614.8 m speed and that has been passed through a divergent nozzle, then when the speed is zero then the pressure will be 33.3 bar?
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Yes, as long as you consider the ideal process. If the speed is reduced by going through a normal shock (usual method in CD nozzle), then there will be a lost that will be reflected in the total pressure (i.e. the pressure when the fluid will be brought to rest).T C said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_shock_tables said:Finally, the ratio of stagnation pressures is shown below whereis the upstream stagnation pressure and
occurs after the normal shock. The ratio of stagnation temperatures remains constant across a normal shock since the process is adiabatic.
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Just to clarify, it is not usual for there to be a normal shock in a C-D nozzle unless it is poorly designed or operating off of the expected design conditions. Usually, you would expect it to be fairly close to ideal, so yes, it is reversible. It is quite difficult to slow down the flow without a shock though - much more difficult than accelerating isentropically, so you would be hard pressed to actually demonstrate that in experiment.
T C
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That means if an air/gas stream has 614.8 m/s speed and at 1 barA pressure, then we can raise the pressure to 33.3 barA by using a c/d or divergent nozzle?
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In theory and ideal conditions, yes.
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True, a normal shock should not exist inside of a C-D nozzle as long as the pressure ratio is sufficient for the nozzle design. That said, if you want to then slow the resulting supersonic flow down, you almost always have a normal shock somewhere. If you're extremely clever you can maybe avoid that with a borderline magical diffuser. Otherwise, it is nearly impossible to isentropically slow a supersonic flow down to subsonic speeds without a shock. Compression waves simply coalesce too readily into shock waves to make that practical in most cases.
Also, if your gas already had 614 m/s velocity and a pressure of 1 barA, you wouldn't need a C-D nozzle to increase the pressure. You would just need some means of slowing the flow down to zero velocity isentropically. In theory, you could use a C-D diffuser to do it, but in practice, that is wishful thinking and a shock will still likely form.
Also, if your gas already had 614 m/s velocity and a pressure of 1 barA, you wouldn't need a C-D nozzle to increase the pressure. You would just need some means of slowing the flow down to zero velocity isentropically. In theory, you could use a C-D diffuser to do it, but in practice, that is wishful thinking and a shock will still likely form.
T C
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Is there any other way to do the job?boneh3ad said:
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T C said:
There are quite a few ways, but as boneh3ad said, it's almost impossible to slow a flow down from supersonic isentropically. You can do better than just a normal shock - most high speed aircraft use a series of oblique shocks for their engine intakes, as the loss in an oblique shock is lower, but you'll pretty much always end up at a lower pressure and higher temperature than the isentropic relation would indicate, due to the losses inherent in the shocks.
T C
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What kind of nozzles are more suitable for the job? I mean whether a c/d nozzle or a simple divergent nozzle?
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Note that a nozzle is specifically something to accelerate a flow. If you're trying to slow it down, you're looking for a diffuser. As stated above, C/D nozzles are very good at isentropically accelerating flow, but to slow it down, you'll want a converging diffuser designed to generate a large number of weak, oblique shocks.
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If you want to accelerate a flow from subsonic to supersonic, a CD nozzle is the only way to do it. You can remove the C portion but ultimately the separation upstream of the throat creates its own C portion for you with greater losses. Same goes for removing the D portion, where the flow could continue expanding on it's own after leaving the nozzle but will incur greater losses.
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The type of shock that develops for the discharge of a converging nozzle or flat plate orifice discharging to atmosphere is dependent upon the pressure ratio. At exactly the critical ratio there is a a flat shock at the exit face; then, as the pressure differential is increased the shock transforms into a portion of a spherical dome that, as the inlet pressure increases, grows to form a full hemisphere; and, at above that point a train of shock diamonds results. The number of diamonds and the length of that train grows as the pressure differential further increases. I have observed this process a number of times at a large valve testing and certification flow facility where we were capable of increasing and holding the valve inlet pressure at very small increments.
The same may occur at the exit of C/D nozzle, but I have no direct observations of discharge shock formations of C/D nozzles to confirm that.
As side note, for the radial flow from a annular nozzle there is an initial flat ring shock that then smoothly evolves directly into a wedge shaped ring of growing height as the pressure differential increases.
The same may occur at the exit of C/D nozzle, but I have no direct observations of discharge shock formations of C/D nozzles to confirm that.
As side note, for the radial flow from a annular nozzle there is an initial flat ring shock that then smoothly evolves directly into a wedge shaped ring of growing height as the pressure differential increases.
T C
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Give above is an example that at very high speed, there are diffusers available that can convert that high speed into pressure. This is a technology used by Twister BV, a Netherlands based company for dehydrating natural gas and other gaseous products. At first, high pressure gas is released and that has been given a twist so that a vortex is formed. At the centre, the temperature falls low and all the humidity remaining in the input gas is being liquefied. Due to the centrifugal force, the liquid droplets were thrown to external wall and then extracted out. Whatsoever, it is to be noted that after re-compression, the pressure level will be about 75% of the initial input level.
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Where are you going with this/what is your point? Yes, when speed increases pressure drops and when speed decreases again, pressure goes back up. We all know this. So what?T C said:
T C
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What I want to mean is that there are diffusers available at present that can convert high speed into pressure without much loss.In the example above, frictional losses are high as there is a swirling motion going on inside.
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Certainly: if they couldn't, they wouldn't be doing their job! Still not sure why you are pointing this out...T C said:
...I'm sensing perhaps that because you jumped right into more advanced topics, you are just now realizing some basic facts/principles. I'd suggest starting from the beginning by reading the wiki articles on Bernoulli's Principle and the Venturi effect.
High speed flow combines fluid dynamics and thermodynamics, so learning each of those separately is really needed before trying to learn their offspring.
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Oh, ok. Well neither of them said "great loss", but rather compared the loss between different scenarios relative to each other ("greater loss"). Nor is "great loss" quantified anywhere. So I don't think that necessarily contradicts what they said.T C said:
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What percentage is recoverable is heavy dependent on Mach number. 75% is trivial for a Mach 1.5 but probably almost impossible for Mach 6.
T C
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Do you agree that with a properly designed diffuser, high speed can be converted into pressure? Theoretically there should be no doubt, but in reality.
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Yes: by definition a diffuser - any diffuser - converts speed into pressure (kinetic energy into potential/pressure energy):T C said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuser_(thermodynamics)
T C
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That's theory and nobody can deny that. What I want to show is that it's practically possible too.russ_watters said:
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I guess I don't understand the question. Of course you can build a supersonic diffuser. The question is whether you can do it without shocks. The answer is "sometimes". It is very difficult and unreliable, but can happen.
T C
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Do you want to mean that such a diffuser may sometime work but not always. Then how the system designed by Twister BV works well?
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I honestly don't know what sort of answer you are seeking here. A diffuser has to be designed for a specific Mach number, and deviating from that in any way can cause it to fail and cause the whole system to fail to start. Any sort of diffuser is going to be a one-off project for the application in hand and designing one is as much a black art as it is a science.
This is why most supersonic diffusers simply forego the idea of slowing the flow down isentropically and employ a normal shock.
This is why most supersonic diffusers simply forego the idea of slowing the flow down isentropically and employ a normal shock.
T C
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What I want to mean is that if one company can make and sell such diffusers then it can be done. From your post, it's clear that it's hard but not impossible.
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At no point did I say it is impossible. Any supersonic flow device has some form of diffuser on it. The question is efficiency.
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T C said:
Of course it is - nearly every supersonic aircraft uses a diffuser of some kind as its inlet for the engines. One rather prominent and famous example of this is the moving cone inlet on the SR-71, which uses a series of radially symmetric oblique shocks to obtain much better pressure recovery than a simple normal shock or even a 2-d oblique shock (in fact, from what I can find, the SR-71 inlets manage ~80% recovery at mach 3.2, which is very impressive). What's nearly impossible is to obtain an isentropic or near-isentropic supersonic diffuser without shocks.