Building an Ion Propulsion Unit At Home: Possible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the feasibility of building an ion propulsion unit at home, particularly in the context of operating on Earth rather than in space. Participants explore various technical aspects, including power requirements, thrust capabilities, and comparisons with existing devices like the Ionic Breeze air purifier.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the possibility of constructing an ion propulsion unit at home and questions whether it requires a defuser and can operate on 110V.
  • Another participant notes that ion thrusters typically operate in the kV range and require significant power, suggesting that a step-up from 110V would be necessary.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the thrust capabilities of ion propulsion systems, with one participant mentioning that they can produce only a few ounces of thrust, comparable to the weight of a piece of paper.
  • Some participants argue that the Ionic Breeze air purifier, which uses a fan to push air and captures dust on charged plates, may provide more thrust than a homemade ionic drive.
  • There is a discussion about the historical context of ionic propulsion devices, with references to past construction plans and the high voltage required for effective operation.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about the effectiveness of the Ionic Breeze, citing poor performance ratings from Consumer Reports and questioning the design's airflow efficiency.
  • Another participant shares a personal anecdote about building a high-voltage speaker that utilized ionized air, highlighting the risks associated with high-voltage experiments.
  • The concept of lifters, described as "foil triangle gizmos," is introduced as a related example of ionic propulsion technology.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with some agreeing on the limitations of thrust from ion propulsion devices while others debate the effectiveness of the Ionic Breeze air purifier. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the practicalities of building a home ion propulsion unit.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various power requirements and the historical context of ionic propulsion, indicating that significant voltage is necessary for operation. There are also references to past experiments and anecdotal evidence regarding the effectiveness of ionic devices.

airtime
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i have had an idea for a few years and am finally starting to go forward with it.. i need to know if it is possible to build an ion propulsion unit at home. being that it is on the Earth and not in space does it need a defuser? can it be made to run on 110v? i don't need it huge to start. i just need something to work with and the ionic breeze air purifier i have just isn't going to cut it. need more thrust. if i can get any help with this i would really appreciate it.
 
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This thread discusses one of the more advanced ion propulsion devices.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=108685

In general ion thrusters operate in the kV range, so one would have to step up 110V. The other part is the power, e.g. 10-30 kW.

The type of ions, e.g. H, Li, Cs, Na, K, Hg, Xe, . . . is an important factor. An an important part is the ion source, then the accelerating field, and final the neutralization step.

There are a few more resources here: http://www.everything-science.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,82/topic,5375.0
 
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And then there is the thrust - currently, they aren't capable of more than a few ounces of thrust, if even that. I think I read that the thrust of DS1's engine is about equal to the weight of a piece of paper.

And I'm not sure what you are talking about with the Ionic Breeze Air purifier - it uses a fan to push the air and just captures dust on charged plates.
 
russ_watters said:
Ionic Breeze Air purifier - it uses a fan to push the air and just captures dust on charged plates.
I hate to be a party-pooper, airtime, but you'd probably get more thrust out of that fan than you would from any ionic drive that you could build at home. As the others pointed out, the thrust of even the best units is miniscule. The whole point of them is to deliver a tiny amount of push over a very long period of time to build up speed. Their efficiency is excellent; their power is not.
 
wow thanks guys. i followed some of the links and really appreciate the info :)
 
You're more than welcome. Now... as long as you're ramped up for the high-voltage stuff anyhow, you might as well build yourself a rail-gun. :biggrin:
 
russ_watters said:
the Ionic Breeze Air purifier - it uses a fan to push the air and just captures dust on charged plates.
AFAIK these don't use a fan. It ionizes the air. The ions are then attracted to the other electrode causing airflow.

About 40 years ago one of the electronic magazines published construction plans for a flyer using this effect.

That was before lawyers.
It required a 40kv power source to make it go.
 
NoTime said:
It required a 40kv power source to make it go.
Sounds like the ex-from-hell.
 
Danger said:
Sounds like the ex-from-hell.
The ceiling, the ceiling is beige!
 
  • #10
NoTime said:
AFAIK these don't use a fan. It ionizes the air. The ions are then attracted to the other electrode causing airflow.

About 40 years ago one of the electronic magazines published construction plans for a flyer using this effect.

That was before lawyers.
It required a 40kv power source to make it go.
Heh - seems you're right. I know about the effect, but it uses an enormous amount of energy to create a tiny amount of thrust and when I see an "effect" patented instead of published, it sets off my crackpot alarm. I can't imagine these things would be that effective.
http://www.sharperimage.com/us/en/catalog/productview/sku__SI837GRY
 
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  • #11
Patented?
How did they get that by the prior art clause?
I would have to say both the moving air effect and electostatic air cleaning are well known.
Using the combination probably makes it efficient enough since any electrostatic cleaner need to ionize the air anyway.

Having seen one, I have to agree about the effectiveness. Not enough air volume or collector surface to make much, if any, difference.
 
  • #12
NoTime said:
Having seen one, I have to agree about the effectiveness. Not enough air volume or collector surface to make much, if any, difference.
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/air-purifiers/index.html
The Ionic Breeze is given a "poor" rating by Consumer Reports, who claims that the Ionic Breeze removed very few particles from the air in their tests. The Sharper Image complained about the testing method used by Consumer Reports, so the organization tested the Ionic Breeze a second time (after the testing method was reviewed and validated by an independent expert) and got the same result. Consumer Reports tested the Ionic Breeze a third time for its May 2005 update, and yet again for its most recent October 2005 report. All of the Ionic Breeze air purifiers have consistently achieved the same poor results.

At Air Purifiers America, editors also give the Ionic Breeze a rating of "poor," adding that the Breeze was "the worst performing unit we tested, in that it only removed 30% of the particles at the unit and 5% in the room." [emphasis added]
Conclusion: low airflow. I wonder - is the tower design on purpose? Perhaps the 10w that this unit uses produces just enough heat to provide a little convection?

Anyway, now the funny part:
In a well-publicized lawsuit filed in September 2003 in California, the Sharper Image asserted that Consumer Reports' findings were false and malicious. That lawsuit was thrown out of court on November 9, 2004, with the court upholding Consumer Reports' First Amendment right to free speech in its assessment and review of the Ionic Breeze Quadra.
If you don't like the results of the test, sue the person who tested it! IMO, they got off easy - if the suit had no been thrown out, the court would have had to actually evaluate the research. And that means the Consumer reports tests would have been endorsed the courts.
 
  • #13
A couple of years ago a friend called and asked about the ionic breeze units. It was immediately apparent that the the IB people weren't very proud of the volumetric airflow since the data couldn't be found. :rolleyes:

I once made a ~25KV speaker that produced sound by oscillating ionized air with an electric field. It worked, sort of... That was the time I took 25KV right up the nose.
 
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  • #14
Ivan Seeking said:
It worked, sort of... That was the time I took 25KV right up the nose.
And since then, you've learned to keep your nose an appropriate distance from things electrical. :rolleyes: :biggrin:
 
  • #15
Astronuc said:
And since then, you've learned to keep your nose an appropriate distance from things electrical. :rolleyes: :biggrin:

Yep, that one hurt. I was trying to listen and didn't realize that I was so close to the HV capacitor leads.

Not bad though really; I think this was the one and only hit in thirty years of work and screwing around [not counting Tesla coils etc which were intentional hits]. I've had a couple of close calls with 480VAC but didn't actually carry any current.
 
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  • #16
The lifters (foil triangle gizmos) are essentially ionic jets.
 

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