Burning Salt Water: The Future of Fuel?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the potential of using radio frequencies to burn salt water as a fuel source. Participants explore the implications of this discovery, its efficiency, and its applications, particularly in desalination. The conversation touches on both theoretical and practical aspects of the process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express skepticism about the feasibility of generating useful energy from burning salt water, noting that the energy required to dissociate water into hydrogen and oxygen exceeds the energy produced by burning the hydrogen.
  • Others propose that while the energy output may not be advantageous, the method could serve as an effective desalination technique, producing pure water from salt water.
  • A participant mentions that the process may produce chlorine gas and other byproducts, raising concerns about potential noxious fumes.
  • Some argue that the efficiency of the microwave generation and the overall process is likely low, with estimates suggesting that overall efficiency may not exceed 30-40%.
  • There is a discussion about the credibility of the researchers involved, with some questioning whether the work is driven by genuine scientific inquiry or funding motives.
  • Participants note the historical context of similar claims in energy generation and express doubts about the novelty of the discovery compared to established methods like electrolysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus. While some see potential in the desalination application, others remain doubtful about the energy generation aspect and the overall efficiency of the process.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include uncertainties regarding the efficiency of the energy conversion process, potential byproducts of burning salt water, and the implications of using radio frequencies in this context.

  • #61
"Rose is a rose is a rose"

--Mr. Gertrude Stein
 
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  • #62
Has this been tried on the Cuyahoga?
 
  • #63
russ_watters said:
That isn't a Shakespeare quote/paraphrase. http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/epub/ahdidioms.shtml

It has nothing to do with the quote you are thinking of: ""What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

Gertrude Stein, inventor of the cubist movement. "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose".
 
  • #64
baywax said:
Gertrude Stein, inventor of the cubist movement. "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose".

what's his name?---picasa, picadora, picante, sargasso---seems like one of those??---I thought whoever(:rolleyes:) he was had something a little more to do with it--hmmm?---

------------------------------

back to the thread topic:

with all of the physicists, chemists, etc. here--has no one tried this yet?
 
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  • #65
baywax said:
Gertrude Stein, inventor of the cubist movement.
She might be called the transporter of the cubist movement to literature, what's his face the painter was the inventor of the cubist movement.
 
  • #66
rewebster said:
with all of the physicists, chemists, etc. here--has no one tried this yet?

The machine that creates the very specific frequencies of radio/microwaves is not in everyone's lab. You can't make one from a kitchen microwave, for example. I'm sure that several have been purchased recently. I'm guessing the machine would be, what.. about 10 to 20 thousand dollars?
 
  • #67
jimmysnyder said:
She might be called the transporter of the cubist movement to literature, what's his face the painter was the inventor of the cubist movement.

Gertrude Stein (February 3, 1874 – July 27, 1946) was an American writer who was a catalyst in the development of modern art and literature. ...Throughout her lifetime, Stein cultivated significant tertiary relationships with ultimately famous members of the avant garde artistic and literary worlds of her time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Stein

I've been lectured by Art Historians about how Gertrude's poem "a rose is a rose...etc" inspired the cubist movement.

I'm guessing the machine would be, what.. about 10 to 20 thousand dollars?

Today a good cubist painting will get you about 100 of those machines that emit the (alleged) proper frequency to burn water from the salt chuck.
 
  • #68
Chi Meson said:
Not so much as a destructive force, but as a source of pain, to disperse crowds. Very effective.

Have you ever been to a dance club? Aren't the sub-woofers putting out something similar to ELFs. People seem pretty attracted to those ;')
 
  • #69
Chi Meson said:
Not so much as a destructive force, but as a source of pain, to disperse crowds. Very effective.

baywax said:
Have you ever been to a dance club? Aren't the sub-woofers putting out something similar to ELFs. People seem pretty attracted to those ;')

that's another reason why they serve alcohol --
 
  • #70
rewebster said:
that's another reason why they serve alcohol --

They serve alcohol at those places?! Do they distill it with microwaves?
 
  • #71
baywax said:
They serve alcohol at those places?! Do they distill it with microwaves?

you may be on (to) something!

-------------------------------

Chi Meson said:
The machine that creates the very specific frequencies of radio/microwaves is not in everyone's lab. You can't make one from a kitchen microwave, for example. I'm sure that several have been purchased recently. I'm guessing the machine would be, what.. about 10 to 20 thousand dollars?

yeah--but still (segue/segway to topic) some one has to have one laying around in their storage room 'waiting' to be used
 
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  • #72
baywax said:
Gertrude Stein, inventor of the cubist movement. "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose".
That probably is a reference to the Shakespeare quote.
 
  • #73
baywax said:
Have you ever been to a dance club? Aren't the sub-woofers putting out something similar to ELFs. People seem pretty attracted to those ;')
That's low frequency sound waves, not radio waves.
 
  • #74
baywax said:
I've been lectured by Art Historians about how Gertrude's poem "a rose is a rose...etc" inspired the cubist movement.
Here is a site showing some cubist paintings by Picasso and others going back to 1907.
http://www.eyeconart.net/history/cubism.htm
The 'rose' line was written in 1913
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_is_a_rose_is_a_rose_is_a_rose

Even if your view of who invented cubism is correct, it is not commonly shared. I Googled for "stein invented cubism" with quotes included and got zero hits. Then I tried "picasso invented cubism" and got 139.
 
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  • #75
baywax said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Stein

I've been lectured by Art Historians about how Gertrude's poem "a rose is a rose...etc" inspired the cubist movement.

Interesting conjecture. But I suspect that given Gerty owned a fair number of Paul Cezannes' works, it wouldn't have been too hard for her to appreciate and see the paring down technique that Paul had introduced into his latter paintings.

From that perspective, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that Picasso having been invited on numerous occasions to dine with Gerty and Leo, may have found this a topic of discussion.

Sadly, the timelines are a little woolly, so who knows who ultimately influence who.

Cheers

Aquafire
 
  • #76
Aquafire said:
Interesting conjecture. But I suspect that given Gerty owned a fair number of Paul Cezannes' works, it wouldn't have been too hard for her to appreciate and see the paring down technique that Paul had introduced into his latter paintings.

From that perspective, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that Picasso having been invited on numerous occasions to dine with Gerty and Leo, may have found this a topic of discussion.

Sadly, the timelines are a little woolly, so who knows who ultimately influence who.

Cheers

Aquafire

Ultimately it was the invention of the telegraph, telephone and related communications devices. These innovations (at the turn of the 20th century) rendered the whole world accessable to people and the boundaries of time differnences began to fall. One of the art historian put it like this: when you could talk to Paris at 4pm from Maine and it was 2am in France this was so astounding to the intellects of the time that the idea of simultaneous events (regardless of distance) began to emerge. Thus, the cubists did their best to portray the simultaneity of all events in their work. The results were varied but you may have heard of Marcel Du Champs' "Nude Descending The Staircase", a cubist work, and the criticisms that came from the American camps calling it "an explosion in a shingle factory".
 
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  • #77
baywax said:
The results were varied but you may have heard of Marcel Du Champs' "Nude Descending The Staircase", a cubist work, and the criticisms that came from the American camps calling it "an explosion in a shingle factory".
And from other cubists for various reasons. It explodes in Phila, a few miles from me.
 
  • #78
jimmysnyder said:
And from other cubists for various reasons. It explodes in Phila, a few miles from me.

I hadn't thought about other cubists bashing other cubists... typical...

sort of like high frequency radio waves bashing salt water... tumultuous.
 
  • #79
----warning---- Amateur post. Probably not worth reading. -----warning-----

How about a long tubing filled with water. The inside of the tubing would be made of a material to reflect radiowaves so that they continue passing through the water. Make the tubing long enough so that the radiowaves eventually become "spent". Would this be efficient? Or at least more efficient than electrolysis?
 
  • #80
You are proposing a resonant tube. Such a tube would select a single specific wavelength of the microwaves that are produced. It would not be necessary anyway, since water is very good at absorbing microwaves in the first place
 
  • #81
Welcome to the club Chi, have you been shown the secret handshake yet?
 
  • #82
I was in gold before, a while back, then my "contribution" ran out. The only reason I didn't re-contribute was due to an irrational mistrust of Paypal. I think the handshake has changed, though...I'm getting funny looks.
 

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