News Bush's Support of Torture: Global Impact and Un-American Reputation

[Ivan Seeking]

You know, if torture is ever used, it's not because someone in the pentagon or the CIA thinks it is really cool, but because, believe it or not, there are people who want to kill you and your loved ones, along with thousands of others, are hard at work figuring ways to do so, do not mind dying themselves, and, if not opposed with the utmost force, will bring the modern world to its knees in an orgy of blood and destruction.

So what's new?

Many terrible plots, targeting both Europe and America (and Asia), have been prevented by using information obtained by intensive interrogation techniques performed on the rats in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

Would you rather have thousands of civilians die than subject some terrorist rat to torture?

So, following your logic, first of all, how many lives must be at stake in order to justify torture; 1, 10, 100...millions? Next, who says who does it, to whom, and when? Do we do this to anyone who might have information or do we have to be reasonably sure? How do we determine sufficient cause? If we turn out to be wrong and torture an innocent person, do we give him a free balloon? And why not let the police do this? If for example we have a bomber who has hidden a bomb, shouldn't he be tortured for an answer? And if we're going to allow this, why not just do it in the courts of law? If for example we can torture a serial killer into confessing, wouldn't the potential for lives saved be worth it? Or if this only applies to non-citizens, does it apply to all races and countries, or just people from certain countries or groups? Finally, how much torture is okay? Can we torture people to death, or to the point of permanent physical damage, or just until they scream to a certain volume? If we don't get results, when do we stop? Does this go on for days, or weeks, or years? And what do we do with the people who are now a danger to society as a result of all of this; say for example the torturers? Should we just kill them when we're done, or should we wait until they turn on the neighbor's kids?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

U.S. Military Law

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340
As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” includes all areas under the jurisdiction of the United States including any of the places described in sections 5 and 7 of this title and section 46501 (2) of title 49.

...TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340A
§ 2340A. Torture
Release date: 2005-08-03
(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_113C.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Lawfulness of Interrogation Techniques under the Geneva Conventions

Prisoners of War
The ill-treatment of prisoners of war, even for the purpose of eliciting information deemed vital to self-defense, has long been considered a violation of the law of war, albeit one that is frequently honored in the breach.4 The practice was understood to be banned prior to the American Civil War. The Lieber Code,5 adopted by the Union Army to codify the law of war as it then existed, explained: “Honorable men, when captured, will abstain from giving to the enemy, information concerning their own army, and the modern law of war permits no longer the use of any violence against prisoners in order to extort the desired information or to punish them for having given false information” (Art. 80).

The Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War (GPW)6 Article 17, paragraph 4 provides the general rule for interrogation of prisoners of war: No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. This language replaced a provision in the 1929 Geneva Convention that stated “[n]o pressure shall be exerted on prisoners to obtain information regarding the situation in their armed forces or their country.”7 According to the ICRC Commentary,8 the many violations that occurred during World War II led drafters of the 1949 Convention to expand the provision to cover “information of any kind whatever,” and by “prohibiting not only ‘coercion’ but also ‘physical or mental torture.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl32567.pdf

 

[deckart]

So what's new?



So, following your logic, first of all, how many lives must be at stake in order to justify torture; 1, 10, 100...millions? Next, who says who does it, to whom, and when? Do we do this to anyone who might have information or do we have to be reasonably sure? How do we determine sufficient cause? If we turn out to be wrong and torture an innocent person, do we give him a free balloon? And why not let the police do this? If for example we have a bomber who has hidden a bomb, shouldn't he be tortured for an answer? And if we're going to allow this, why not just do it in the courts of law? If for example we can torture a serial killer into confessing, wouldn't the potential for lives saved be worth it? Or if this only applies to non-citizens, does it apply to all races and countries, or just people from certain countries or groups? Finally, how much torture is okay? Can we torture people to death, or to the point of permanent physical damage, or just until they scream to a certain volume? If we don't get results, when do we stop? Does this go on for days, or weeks, or years? And what do we do with the people who are now a danger to society as a result of all of this; say for example the torturers? Should we just kill them when we're done, or should we wait until they turn on the neighbor's kids?

Nah, we should just smile, hand them a cigarette and ask them, "So, why did you kill all those women, children and folks just going about their lives?"... and wait for logical answer. And if we don't hear one, just try them, aquit them, and let them go.

That's the way to peace in the world...



Quit whining and give us some solutions, man! People are killing innocent people just because they are living life! GET REAL. Watch some of the footage of these guys cutting off heads of unarmed civilians, non-combatants, people who want to help them! They (the combatants) don't value human life like you do. Get it through your freakin head!

I'm just amazed at how naive some you guys are here in "forum land". Grow up and look around.

 

[Anttech]

You know, if torture is ever used, it's not because someone in the pentagon or the CIA thinks it is really cool, but because, believe it or not, there are people who want to kill you and your loved ones, along with thousands of others, are hard at work figuring ways to do so, do not mind dying themselves, and, if not opposed with the utmost force, will bring the modern world to its knees in an orgy of blood and destruction.

If that's not a fascist statement, I don't know what is...

And this is coming from the same person who claims:

...snip.. to the very principles of personal freedom (and responsibility) that the US stands for.

personal freedom, but tortue is ok...

Many terrible plots, targeting both Europe and America (and Asia), have been prevented by using information obtained by intensive interrogation techniques performed on the rats in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

Your blind nationalism, and bigotry are what feeds the current US administrations authoritarian behavior... At least all is able to see a mirror between the Ruler and his followers...

I really sympathies with the Rest of the States having to put up with this Fascism, hidden inside of Nationalism... What was it that George Orwell said about Nationalism..
Ohh I remember:

Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm just amazed at how naive some you guys are here in "forum land". Grow up and look around.

How old are you, 18?

It is not only naive but dangerous to think that anything is different now than before. The dangers are no more real now than when the Soviet had 20,000 nuclear warheads pointed at us, or when Hitler threatened to dominate world. Do you really think that 911 was worse than Pearl Harbor? Do you think that terrorist threats are more threatening than the Japanese subs that shelled the west coast in WWII.

 

[Anttech]

How old are you, 18?

I think younger... Never heard such a load of Fascist drivel

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Anyone insisting that torture as a means of gathering intelligence is in any way profitable is admitting that such techniques are employed. Since no-one is admitting them, they cannot be shown to be profitable. If they cannot be shown to be profitable, there is no justification for using them.

And of course I'm sure anyone defending the use of torture on the basis that it may save innocent lives will grant the enemy the same courtesy - that is, should any Iraqi militant group have tortured American soldiers in an effort to obtain intelligence about, say, planned bombing campaigns that also kill thousands of innocent civilians, the pro-torture contingent is happy about this.

Or is torture only good if it serves American interests? Those that defend the use of the torture of foreign nationals do so under the belief that all non-American life is less important than American life. Dehumanising the enemy may make rationalising coalition brutality a whole lot easier, but as an argument it is not worth responding to, so fundamentally foul is its premise.

 

[pattylou]

People are killing innocent people just because they are living life!

That's right. We are. I am sure you can find some of the images of the horrors that we're reaping in Iraq, by googling appropriate terms. A real solution? ... might be to leave Iraq.

We've had a number of offensives on "insurgent strongholds" such as the attack on Fallujah last November. The idea is to "break the insurgency." Some people seem to argue that this is a sound way to go.

Look at this:




I'd also suggest that another possible solution is to try something more in line like the handling of the IRA.

 

[deckart]

I think younger... Never heard such a load of Fascist drivel

I'm 35.

Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.

I'm not a fascist.

 

[arildno]

Get real:
Terrorism is a trivial threat to the Western world.
There have always been murderous loonys, and always will be. Normal life will go on.

Systematic deprivations of personal freedoms by power hungry polticians are in the long run a far greater threat to Western culture.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I'm not a fascist.

No, you are not a fascist, nor is your love of torture inherently fascistic. In fact, it has more in common with theocracies. However, since your suggested alternative to torture (cigars, etc) was an unreasonable attempt to undermine a perfectly valid argument and position, you can hardly expect a reasonable response.

 

[Skyhunter]

Many terrible plots, targeting both Europe and America (and Asia), have been prevented by using information obtained by intensive interrogation techniques performed on the rats in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

Could you site three examples af the many?

 

[Skyhunter]

Nah, we should just smile, hand them a cigarette and ask them, "So, why did you kill all those women, children and folks just going about their lives?"... and wait for logical answer. And if we don't hear one, just try them, aquit them, and let them go.

That's the way to peace in the world...

Pure hyperbole.

Quit whining and give us some solutions, man! People are killing innocent people just because they are living life! GET REAL. Watch some of the footage of these guys cutting off heads of unarmed civilians, non-combatants, people who want to help them! They (the combatants) don't value human life like you do. Get it through your freakin head!

Except the guys cuting off heads are not the ones being tortured.

I'm just amazed at how naive some you guys are here in "forum land". Grow up and look around.

I am surprised at how ignorant some of you guys are to believe that the terrorists want to kill us for living. Or that the guy who stole some plywood to patch the hole that was blown into the side of his house during Shock and Awe should be tortured to obtain information he never had!

I think you might be a terrorist, so I will torture you until you admit it.

Talk about naive.

 

[Astronuc]

Many terrible plots, targeting both Europe and America (and Asia), have been prevented by using information obtained by intensive interrogation techniques performed on the rats in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

I believe that might be an exaggeration. Most people released from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo have apparently been innocent. Some were turned in for money or retaliation.

Unfortunately, the US government does not appear to be too concerned with ensuring basic human rights, especially when it comes to non-US citizens. So the US government commits inhuman acts for which it condemns terrorists and despotic governments. Well on the other hand, apparently the Egyptian and Saudi Arabian governments also use torture, but that's apparently OK because they are allies in the war on terror.

Or perhaps they are allies in terror. It's hard to tell sometimes.

Anyway, Americans are more likely to be killed by other Americans, than by foreign terrorists. http://www.madd.org/stats/0,1056,1298,00.html And that's just traffic fatalities - between 40,000 - 48,000 per year.

And then there is homicides, which are holding steady at about 5-6 per 100,000 - http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm#contents

Hmmm. Perhaps we need to establish tight control on all Americans - curfews, national identity card, transit cards, etc.

 

[arildno]

Many terrible plots, targeting both Europe and America (and Asia), have been prevented by using information obtained by intensive interrogation techniques performed on the rats in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

Not a single plot of any serious magnitude has been uncovered by this practice that would have come to fruition if these individuals hadn't beem tortured.
Prove otherwise if you can.

 

[Skyhunter]

Hmmm. Perhaps we need to establish tight control on all Americans - curfews, national identity card, transit cards, etc.

Just give Bushco a little more time, they are working on it. See http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot2draft.html

 

[deckart]

Just give Bushco a little more time, they are working on it. See http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot2draft.html

BTW, thanks for the link, this is interesting. Though, I don't see anything referring to curfews, national id cards, or transit cards. Are there governments that use such cards?

 

[Astronuc]

BTW, thanks for the link, this is interesting. Though, I don't see anything referring to curfews, national id cards, or transit cards. Are there governments that use such cards?

The Soviet Union and and perhaps China have used national IDs. Citizens needed permission to travel within the countries.

I don't know the current status. Russia may not do that anymore, but the many are so poor they probably don't travel much, and perhaps China has relaxed a little. However, we need the story from people in those countries.

I am not certain about other countries.

 

[deckart]

I'm going to Shanghai in December. I'll inquire about that.

 

[ron damon]

How old are you, 18?

It is not only naive but dangerous to think that anything is different now than before. The dangers are no more real now than when the Soviet had 20,000 nuclear warheads pointed at us, or when Hitler threatened to dominate world. Do you really think that 911 was worse than Pearl Harbor? Do you think that terrorist threats are more threatening than the Japanese subs that shelled the west coast in WWII.

The Russians, with 20,000 nuclear warheads to back them up, never launched an attack on the US. Al Qaeda did, armed with only a couple of planes. Care to take a guess on what a Muslim terrorist would do with just one nuclear weapon? Can you comprehend the implications of that?

All your questions from your previous post are very valid, common-sense, ones. And no, I don't have answers for them. But I know this, that if you try to confront Muslim terrorists with the tools and methods designed to fight conventional war or crime, you'll end up in a holocaust of innocent civilians, and the world retreating into a new dark age.

The nature of the threat they represent is extreme, and thus requires extreme (and innovative) measures to counteract it.

 

[ron damon]

If that's not a fascist statement, I don't know what is...

And this is coming from the same person who claims:


personal freedom, but tortue is ok...


Your blind nationalism, and bigotry are what feeds the current US administrations authoritarian behavior... At least all is able to see a mirror between the Ruler and his followers...

I really sympathies with the Rest of the States having to put up with this Fascism, hidden inside of Nationalism... What was it that George Orwell said about Nationalism..
Ohh I remember:

Yeah, just wait until your neighbor's kid is blown to pieces while riding the bus to school. You'll understand then.

Plus, I'd recommend you answer argument with argument, instead of just throwing around meaningless adjectives.

 

[ron damon]

And of course I'm sure anyone defending the use of torture on the basis that it may save innocent lives will grant the enemy the same courtesy

... have you missed all of the beheadings? Or the suicide bombings targeting children?

I've got news for you buddy: the enemy doesn't follow any rules.

 

[ron damon]

That's right. We are. I am sure you can find some of the images of the horrors that we're reaping in Iraq.

So the US is the one sending in all of those suicide bombers? Interesting interpretation...

 

[ron damon]

Not a single plot of any serious magnitude has been uncovered by this practice that would have come to fruition if these individuals hadn't beem tortured.
Prove otherwise if you can.

I saw that in news site not long ago, and I think the statement was made by an European, maybe Blair himself. I *hate* search engines (since I can never find what I'm looking for ), so you go ahead and try to dig that info up.

I didn't invent it. Trust me.

 

[Burnsys]

Anyway, Americans are more likely to be killed by other Americans, than by foreign terrorists. http://www.madd.org/stats/0,1056,1298,00.html And that's just traffic fatalities - between 40,000 - 48,000 per year.

And then there is homicides, which are holding steady at about 5-6 per 100,000 - http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm#contents

Hmmm. Perhaps we need to establish tight control on all Americans - curfews, national identity card, transit cards, etc.

And torture also? yo never know when your neighbor is going to kill you! Torture all neighbors they mabye traying to kill you becouse you live!

 

[Anttech]

Plus, I'd recommend you answer argument with argument, instead of just throwing around meaningless adjectives

how does it go.. oh yeh pot calls the kettle black...


You didnt come here with an argument you came here stating nonsense

Yeah, just wait until your neighbor's kid is blown to pieces while riding the bus to school. You'll understand then.

Is that a threat? Maybe he knows something we don't know... Anyone got some equiptment of torture so we can extract information from him

 

[TRCSF]

So the US is the one sending in all of those suicide bombers? Interesting interpretation...

Naw.

The U.S. is using homicide bombers.

 

[Anttech]

All your questions from your previous post are very valid, common-sense, ones. And no, I don't have answers for them. But I know this, that if you try to confront Muslim terrorists with the tools and methods designed to fight conventional war or crime, you'll end up in a holocaust of innocent civilians, and the world retreating into a new dark age.

Is there an end to this moronic slander...

 

[TRCSF]

70% to 90% of Iraqi prisoners arrested by mistake.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm

So basically, we're torturing people who never did anything. Then we go and arrest people that they name under torture, who also never did anything, then we torture them.

Anonymous informants. Midnight raids. Torture.

That's the sort of thing we used to hate the communists for doing.