Calculating Error of w from Errors in x,y,z

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around methods for calculating the error in a physical quantity, w, that is derived from other measured quantities, x, y, and z. Participants explore various approaches to error propagation, particularly in the context of experimental measurements where the errors in x, y, and z are known. The conversation touches on theoretical and practical aspects of error analysis.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a formula for error propagation: Δw = (∂f/∂x)Δx + (∂f/∂y)Δy + (∂f/∂z)Δz.
  • Another participant suggests an alternative approach: Δw² = (∂f/∂x)²Δx² + (∂f/∂y)²Δy² + (∂f/∂z)²Δz², noting it is standard for independent errors.
  • A participant mentions the GUM (Guide to the Expression of Uncertainty in Measurement) as a comprehensive resource for understanding error calculations.
  • Concerns are raised about the GUM being too lengthy and detailed, making it difficult to extract key points relevant to specific questions.
  • One participant highlights the complexity of calculating errors properly, indicating that the best method can be a controversial topic, especially between different statistical approaches like Bayesian and frequentist methods.
  • Monte Carlo simulations are suggested as a general method for calculating errors, particularly when dealing with real data, with a note on the importance of assigning appropriate distributions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the best method for calculating errors, with no consensus reached on a single approach. Some support the use of the GUM while others find it inadequate for their needs. The discussion reflects a variety of perspectives on error analysis techniques.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that calculating errors is not trivial and that different contexts may require different methods. The discussion includes references to various statistical approaches and the potential use of software tools for error analysis.

ShayanJ
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Consider a physical quantity e.g. w,related to some other quantities by [itex]w=f(x,y,z)[/itex].
Imagine an experiment is done for finding the value of w and the measurement errors for x,y and z are known.
I want to know what is the standard method for calculating the error in w resulting from the errors in x,y and z?
I can think of several ways but don't know which is better!
1-[itex]\Delta w=\frac{\partial f}{\partial x}\Delta x+\frac{\partial f}{\partial y}\Delta y+\frac{\partial f}{\partial z}\Delta z[/itex]
2-[itex]\Delta w^2=(\frac{\partial f}{\partial x})^2 \Delta x^2+(\frac{\partial f}{\partial y})^2 \Delta y^2+(\frac{\partial f}{\partial z})^2 \Delta z^2[/itex]
and some others...!

Thanks
 
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The "pythagoras" approach is where x,y,z are independent.
 
2 is the standard for independent errors.
 
Why not have a look at the GUM?

http://www.bipm.org/en/publications/guides/gum.html

It is surprisingly readable with quite a few examples. It is also (litteraly) the standard which just about everyone ultimately follows (albeit not always directly), i.e. as long as you folllow the GUM you are pretty safe.
 
Maybe the GUM should be made sticky?
 
GUM is just too long and detailed that you don't know where is the main point!
I couldn't find my answer there!
 
Shyan said:
GUM is just too long and detailed that you don't know where is the main point!
I couldn't find my answer there!

Well, you did ask a very open ended question. Calculating errors "properly" is far from trivial and in some cases the "best way" is a controversial question (just put some people who like Bayesian error estimates in the same room as adherents of "orthodox" frequentist estimates).
Where I work we have a mathematical modelling group which (litteraly) specialises in just this. The GUM is the "basic" document which everyone who needs to do this professionally (e.g. because they do calibration work, quality control or have to certfy equipment) is expected to know.

The most general way of calculating errors (which is frequently used for real data) is to run Monte Carlo simulations, where you've assigned the proper distibution (which usually is the worst case scenario, unless you have very good reason to e.g. assume that the distribution is narrower than this). There is also specialised software you can get that will help you do this.
 

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