California Fires and Electrical Reliability Around The World

[artis]

To be honest I see only one solution to this whole drama. The high voltage (in our continent20kV and above) lines have to go on poles as usual with trees removed below and regular maintenance while inner city or private house neighborhoods need to have all their low voltage lines underground, since the low volt lines are far more than the HV ones it is easier to take care and regular work on the HV ones while the low voltage ones are simply buried and done with.

In my country since we "joined voluntarily" the USSR in the first half of the 20th century, history went like this, before WW2 we had mostly old few story city blocks with wires underground already and then mostly rural private houses with wires above ground, then in the 1950's and 60's the USSR developed a very aggressive electrification policy (after all the socialist kingdom couldn't be complete without modern wonders)
apart from building power plants they built a lot of HV and LV infrastructure and it went like this, all HV lines like (750, 330, 110, 20 kV) were on poles and above ground mostly except from places were cable was needed, then most of LV below 20kV was buried underground in cities with the only exception in rural areas and countryside small scale factories.
This helps kind of because as long as you trim the trees under the large HV lines the low voltage lines usually supply only small local regions and the city low voltage lines feed off directly from the large HV ones via local substations so basically as long as the main large ones are intact the cities are fine and most rural countryside is fine also.
I understand why in the US it might be different because we had communism while you had capitalism , that means that back in the day (1950's etc) we built massive "socialist" reinforced concrete jungle blocks with all wires underground while you built private houses and whole neighborhoods of them and back at that time it was still preferred to use wires on poles in those areas, while in our case we couldn't have used wires on poles for these big buildings. In my country we only started building private houses after 1990's after the breakup of USSR and by that time the technology was such that all cables were buried underground. Back in the USSR only a few were allowed to build private houses, and both policy as well as cultural trend was to live in large city buildings rather than in private houses.
I have attached few images of how an ordinary city here looks like as well as residential private house neighborhoods.
I would love to hear some info about how distribution and infrastructure is built in say California and what type of housing dominates the area in terms of where most of Californians live? (I would imagine private housing)

 

[artis]

In both cities as well as residential areas we have buried cables with these square like little houses as our substations , the picture with the wooden poles is a 20kV rural line, smaller poles are for 0.4kV they look the same except being smaller with 4 wires on them (3 phases and neutral) they only go in very remote areas where there is a central substation and the poles extend the 3 phases from the small substation to individual houses.

One notable exception that we don't have at all here is those small " pole pig" transformers on poles, we have never had them.
So from what I can tell is when all traffos and switches are under a roof and all cables in cities and private house areas buried then there is almost no problem whatsoever.

 

[artis]

@jim mcnamara interesting to hear, well it is kind of hard to compare because these problems are also largely connected to population density and overall population, also the wealth of the population (which will determine how much power they can afford to use) so I would imagine places like China have 5 to 10 times the poeple density as US but probably 2 to 3 times lower consumption per person.
Here in Latvia we have roughly 2 million people, most infrastructure was built in the 60's but since 1990's and especially after 2000 there was a big increase in private house building as well as there are more appliances these days than before, all in all our grid is holding up nicely.
I must also note that we had a very specific situation where before 1990 while still part of the USSR we had many factories and military installations so the grid had extra capacity built for that, after 1990 most of those factories stopped production and only half or bit more of that capacity has been regained since then, also many military installations have ceased like the "Darjal" type radars which were used for monitoring of the airspace above the Atlantic etc, so that gave up some extra capacity for civilian needs.

We also have mostly centralized heating for winters, in most cities that is natural gas fired or back in the day it was coal or oil, now converted to wood chips mostly. In places that had nuclear reactors we used the heat from them to heat neighboring cities, one notable place which was featured in the "hype drama Chernobyl" was Ignalina npp which dumped it's return feed from turbines to local neighboring cities.

All in all we have 3 hydro plants. with combined capacity of about 1800 MW, which makes roughly 50% of our annual net electric consumption, Then we have 2 large gas fired plants producing both heat and electricity, (back in the day they were coal fired) we import cheap Russia gas and store it in a special naturally occurring underground layer that acts like a large reservoir. In summer the gas is pumped in and then used in winter.
The gas fired plants together with some small scale wind parks and small scale cogeneration make up another 30+% of electricity, the varying 20% we import from Russia. This imported power is mostly made in NPP. All in all we are among the "greener" power consumers in whole of Europe thanks to our small population and hydro and nuclear power.
Plans are underway to add some 300+ MW in wind capacity near my location.Our price of electricity is currently 0.06 Euro cents or about 0.06 usd per kWh. But since our market is now open for competition the price can vary and get lower based on the amount of kWh consumed and the type of customer (single phase vs 3 phase etc.)Also it is interesting to hear that electric companies are struggling in US because here our national energy company is (not kidding) the highest earning company in my whole state, surpassing oil and gas production etc.
Also due to EU policy we now pay an extra per every kWh consumed as a dividend to sustain alternatives , like wind, solar , biomass etc. In other words if an entity gets permission to build certain capacity of either wind or solar or gas/bio then they get about 50% sponsored for building costs from EU and for every kWh produced to the grid they get double the price as hydro or nuclear. (not that good for poor consumers, but these plants would otherwise die without subsidies, they simply can't compete with our cheap and reliable hydro and nuclear)

Also since we had different history and people here tend to submit to authority much more cutting trees under power lines is a normal thing, nobody even thinks about that or considers that bad, I would say nobody even knows about it. We never had the hippie movement nor any "greenpeace" type of NGO's.The only things we care are a bit about nuclear safety and that is simply because thousands of young men and women had to go to Chernobyl in 1986, they were ordered into trains and buses and took part of the major cleanup operation, so radiation danger is kind of personal here. Many lost a loved one and about half of those who went developed cancer and other health issues.
All in all we tend to let our engineers do their work and don't bother them.

 

[anorlunda]

As you all see, it becomes very complicated with multiple factors that differ by location or by country.

One factor not mentioned yet is local level financing. In the USA, if we build a new housing development, all the utilities infrastructure is built into the price of the house and financed by a mortgage loan. Nearly all of them choose underground service.

But upgrade projects that come years later, may not be eligible for mortgage financing. Those costs fall upon those who live along the street upgraded. High costs, may force people living on the margin to lose their homes because they can't afford the fees. Sympathy for such people kills many proposed upgrade projects.

City or commune financing makes some of these problems easier. But then you must give the city the authority to limit people's right to choose. European cities tend to need fewer km² than American cities with the same population. Higher density makes all the utilities and public transportation problems less expensive. Denying building permits for new houses outside the perimeter is one way to enforce that.

So nearly every financial/social/political issue becomes entangled with infrastructure design.

 

[artis]

@anorlunda you basically confirmed what I asserted that the US built a lot more hosing as a single family single house instead of apartment blocks, I would tend to think that even the private houses had more area per house, (how much land area for an average house? )

Here the government finances infrastructure, like roads , water etc also for new projects, the customer has to pay only for the distance from the street connection to his and into his private property. customer only has to pay the full infrastructure price if he/she decides to build a house far away from any existing infrastructure like in deeply rural area or middle of nowhere.
I guess the whole mentality here is different even though we are now a democratic republic we still have a rather clear distinction between private and public, infrastructure is largely considered public property, it is only financed from either budget subsidies or a percentage from the revenue of the company.
As an example the wires coming into my house are only mine to deal with from the moment they cross the fence over my property if something happens on the street I call the official electricians and they do the job while their company pays the bill

on the other hand if something goes wrong with their transformer for example and either overvoltage appears or instead of neutral two phases (there have been a few cases) and your appliances go boom , well 99% chance you will pay yourself and no one will be held accountable unless you are rather wealthy with good lawyers. So I assume because of this system of rights and democracy it is much harder to do engineering in US as the price goes up because of the potential legal pressure.
Here if a hydro dam would burst say or a powerline would cause injury it would be just an accident and that's it no worries and no consequences in case the cause was natural.

 

[artis]

PS. I guess bureaucracy with lot's of rights for individuals and strong advocacy groups are good for liberal democracy but bad for real engineering because in situations where something needs to be done and done cheaply nothing can be done instead and all have to suffer as a consequence.

 

[BWV]

CA is unique in that any fire damage resulting from their equipment is treated as eminent domain - full compensation is due to the homeowner regardless of cause. Other states have a negligence threshold before they are liable for damages. The blackouts are simple liability management - PG&E is already in bankruptcy and trying to settle damages from previous fires it does not want to risk another, never mind the potential deaths and economic cost of the blackouts.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ia-rule-that-doomed-pg-e-inverse-condemnation

 

[artis]

So, are there any updates, what is happening in California now ?

 

[anorlunda]

So, are there any updates, what is happening in California now ?

More of the same; wind, low humidity, deliberate blackouts, fires. The utility PG&E said in the news that the deliberate blackouts during high fire risk day can be expected for the next 10 years.

When the fire season is over, then we may expect some more thoughtful writing about the many issues. Right now, people's focus is on emergency actions.

 

[artis]

Yes I hear in the news that Cali is burning more or less constantly for some time now , right?

I suppose the fire risk is mostly from the low voltage suburban distribution lines and not from the HV large metal structure ones?

 

[anorlunda]

Yes I hear in the news that Cali is burning more or less constantly for some time now , right?

Ouch! The people of Cali, Columbia won't like you using that abbreviation for California.

I suppose the fire risk is mostly from the low voltage suburban distribution lines and not from the HV large metal structure ones?

Maybe, true. But given the high winds blowing branches and debris around, I think all the lines at all voltages constitute a fire hazard. Any kind of line-to-ground fault provides sparks. Even line-to-line faults high above ground may drop sparks to ground level.

 

[phyzguy]

Yes I hear in the news that Cali is burning more or less constantly for some time now , right?

Let's put it in perspective. Calfire lists 8 active fires totaling about 44,000 acres. The land area of California is about 400,000 square miles or about 250,000,000 acres. So about 0.02% of the land area has active fires. A major problem if your home or business is near one of the active fires, but not exactly "California is burning".

 

[Tom.G]

I'm writing this from Southern California Coastal area.

A headline on Google News as I write this.
California Fires: 2 million without power, 180000 evacuated, 93 mph winds

The big fire(s), at the moment, are in Northern California. We've had, for us, fair sized fires in S. CA. At least the ones that make the News seem to be sparked by high voltage transmission lines out in the wilds, and/or in the moutains. Occassionally human error like a barbecue or a hot vehicle parked on the roadside grass.

The high winds are caused by Low Pressure along the coast and a High Pressure area a few hundred miles East of us, in the high desert and on the other side of a mountain range. That High is venting, and being funneled thru, the mountain valleys.

The air starts out rather dry and hot. As it comes down toward sea level it warms further from compression. The temperature here a couple days ago was 98F at 6 blocks from the Pacific Ocean (about 34°N). This also results in extremely low humidity, one report mentioned 3%RH.

Fires from local distribution in urban areas don't seem to grow much, probably because the heavily populated areas are also heavily populated with municipal Fire Stations. Also not much dry kindling in the city.

Being about 70 miles from the nearest big fire, we can run to the beach and go for a swim if needed.

 

[anorlunda]

Thanks for sharing for the benefit of our members from other places in the world. Stay safe @Tom.G

Fires from local distribution in urban areas don't seem to grow much, probably because the heavily populated areas are also heavily populated with municipal Fire Stations.

How about fuel laying on the ground, like dried grass? I would expect more of that in unpopulated areas. And the least in downtown areas where almost everything is paved.

 

[mfb]

Let's put it in perspective. Calfire lists 8 active fires totaling about 44,000 acres. The land area of California is about 400,000 square miles or about 250,000,000 acres. So about 0.02% of the land area has active fires. A major problem if your home or business is near one of the active fires, but not exactly "California is burning".

4000 serial killers in California would occupy ~4000 m² or 1 acre.
Not just the area currently burning is relevant, but also the area that had a fire recently and the area threatened by one.

 

[BWV]

And the incidence of fires in the uninhabited SE desert, the agricultural central valley or the northern rain-forests is nil

 

[phyzguy]

4000 serial killers in California would occupy ~4000 m² or 1 acre.
Not just the area currently burning is relevant, but also the area that had a fire recently and the area threatened by one.

You've lost me with your analogy. I wasn't trying to minimize the damage, just to put it in perspective that "California is burning" is a bit of an overstatement. Also, it's interesting to look at the year-year statistics. Altough the number of acres burned each year appears to be increasing (see graph below from National Geographic), this year is actually way down from last year and well below the recent average(see table from CalFire).

 

[WWGD]

Ouch! The people of Cali, Columbia won't like you using that abbreviation for California.
Maybe, true. But given the high winds blowing branches and debris around, I think all the lines at all voltages constitute a fire hazard. Any kind of line-to-ground fault provides sparks. Even line-to-line faults high above ground may drop sparks to ground level.

The people of Cali _Colombia_ won't like to be called Columbians ;).

 

[WWGD]

Let's put it in perspective. Calfire lists 8 active fires totaling about 44,000 acres. The land area of California is about 400,000 square miles or about 250,000,000 acres. So about 0.02% of the land area has active fires. A major problem if your home or business is near one of the active fires, but not exactly "California is burning".

Actually, the land area of California is around 410000 square kilometers, (some 158000 square miles, around 100 million acres) not 400000 square miles.

 

[artis]

Well to be honest , even though I don't have the information about the history of California stretching back thousands of years I would assume that those years ago when there were no people the land still burned from time to time and probably without supervision it was even worse.
This is also the reason I don't understand people living right next or close to active volcanoes and then complaining that their houses got buried under ash and lava.

People often get too attached to comfort and forget that living on this world is not a privilege that can be taken as lightly.

All in all I would probably build some walls of concrete or other material around neighborhoods that are in direct contact with wilderness that has grass or trees from which fire can jump over, then bury the damn cables or at least secure the land directly below so that in case a spark jumps it can't ignite anything because sand doesn't burn, and these sparks also don't fly for long distances they only survive and can ignite something that is directly below or very close.
In many cases I see in TV scenes were the burned houses are located in remote areas in clusters and are right next to or very close to vegetation and trees in open areas, I think it is time to rethink the zones that can be used for settlement over there.
Anyway given that there are roughly 40 million people living in such a volatile land I think any solution to anything will be either slow and expensive or impossible, it is easy to set high tech standards for areas with very little population but it is much more complicated to do so for an area that is itself complicated and has a large population with existing infrastructure etc.

One question , do most of the 40 million of California live in the largest cities like San Francisco and LA? I see that LA alone has roughly 13 million, so this makes me wonder.

 

[phyzguy]

Actually, the land area of California is around 410000 square kilometers, (some 158000 square miles, around 100 million acres) not 400000 square miles.

You're right. My bad. So it is 0.04% of the land area, not 0.02%.

 

[WWGD]

You're right. My bad. So it is 0.04% of the land area, not 0.02%.

Yes, your point still stands ( modulo 2.59x ;)).

 

[Tom.G]

A new fire this morning in L.A., the Getty fire. Named that because it is near the J. Paul Getty Museum, in the hills between L.A. proper and the San Fernando Valley. The Valley is mainly residential with commutes into L.A. proper for jobs. The 405 Freeway was closed for several hours, that is the main route out of the city to the North-West, 4 lanes each direction and often stop-and-go during rush hour.

That makes the closest fire at 34 miles from here, half yesterdays distance, but with 30 miles of city between us.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Tom.G]

Found a 17 minute video from a news helicopter showing the Getty fire.
Has a nice aerial shot of the Getty Museum too.