Can a group be isomorphic to one of its quotients?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether a group can be isomorphic to one of its quotients, particularly focusing on infinite groups and the relationship between subgroups and quotient groups. Participants explore various examples and theoretical implications related to this concept.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that for a finite group, the only quotient that can be isomorphic to the group is the trivial group, implying that infinite groups are necessary for the discussion.
  • Another participant raises the example of an infinite product of integers, questioning if quotienting by the first factor leads to a subgroup isomorphic to the quotient.
  • It is noted that there is no subgroup of the integers that is isomorphic to the quotient of integers by 2, indicating limitations in subgroup correspondence.
  • A participant argues that even with infinite quotients, there are still cases where no subgroup is isomorphic to the quotient, providing a specific example involving the product of integers.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of simple groups, suggesting that they can have non-trivial subgroups but lack non-trivial quotients, using the permutation group S5 as an example.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between subgroups and quotients, with no consensus reached on whether a group can be isomorphic to one of its quotients. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the topic, particularly regarding the conditions under which results apply, such as the distinction between finite and infinite groups and the specific structures of subgroups and quotients.

WWGD
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Of course it must be an infinite group, otherwise |G/N|=|G|/|N| and then {e} is the only ( and trivial) solution. I understand there is a result that for every quotient Q:=G/N there is a subgroup H that is isomorphic to Q. Is that the case?
 
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How about an infinite product ##\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}\times...## and quotient out by the first factor?

WWGD said:
I understand there is a result that for every quotient Q:=G/N there is a subgroup H that is isomorphic to Q. Is that the case?
No, there is no subgroup of ##\mathbb{Z}## that is isomorphic to ##\mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}.##
 
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Infrared said:
How about an infinite product ##\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}\times...## and quotient out by the first factor?No, there is no subgroup of ##\mathbb{Z}## that is isomorphic to ##\mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}.##
Thanks. Sorry, I believe the result I quoted (may)apply to infinite groups.
 
WWGD said:
Thanks. Sorry, I believe the result I quoted (may)apply to infinite groups.
No, even if the quotient is infinite, it is still false. There is no subgroup of ##\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}## that is isomorphic to ##\left(\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}\right)/\left(\{0\}\times 2\mathbb{Z}\right)\cong\mathbb{Z}\times\left(\mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}\right).##
 
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Re the lack of correspondence between subgroups and quotient groups, I though of another argument: just take a simple group. It will have non-trivial subgroups but no non-trivial quotient. Maybe simplest vase is ##S_5##, the permutation group on 5 elements . It has the alternating subgroup, which cannot be a quotient by cardinality reasons.
 

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