Can a lift electromagnet pull a permanent magnet?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interaction between a lift electromagnet and a permanent magnet, specifically whether the lift electromagnet can pull the permanent magnet and the factors influencing the breakaway force when they are combined. The scope includes theoretical considerations and practical implications of magnet interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether a lift electromagnet with both N and S poles on the same side can effectively pull a permanent magnet with opposite poles, suggesting that the interaction may be unpredictable.
  • Another participant proposes that if the north pole of the permanent magnet faces the lift magnet, the south pole of the lift magnet will attract it while the north pole will repel it, leading to a complex interaction.
  • A participant inquires if placing a piece of metal between the two magnets would increase attraction.
  • Another response indicates that using soft iron as a mediator could enhance attraction due to induced magnetism, but notes that the differing polarity patterns of the magnets would still play a role in the interaction.
  • One participant raises a question about the relationship between this setup and electric motors, suggesting that the principles may overlap due to the electromagnet's behavior in the presence of a permanent magnet.
  • A later reply describes a scenario involving a circular magnet and soft iron, suggesting that the configuration of the soft iron could influence the effectiveness of the attraction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the interaction between the lift electromagnet and the permanent magnet, with no consensus reached on the specifics of the breakaway force or the effectiveness of using additional materials like soft iron.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various assumptions regarding the configurations of the magnets and the materials used, but these assumptions remain unresolved and depend on specific experimental setups.

kfpanda
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A lift electromagnet has N + S pole on the same side. will it push or pull a permanent magnet which has N & S pole on opposite side? If I have a lift electromagnet and a permanent magnet, both can pull 100 lbs. What is the break away force if I put them together? Thanks
 
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If your permanent magnet has the north pole facing the lift magnet, the south pole on the lift magnet will attract it and the north pole will repel it.

So, it becomes a bit unpredictable and you would have to try it to find out. However, it will be lot less than if you had just two permanent magnets attracting each other.
 
Will the attraction increase if I put a piece of metal in between the 2 magnet?
 
Probably.

Both magnets will attract the metal if it is soft iron, but there will still be some interaction due to the different polarity patterns of the magnets.

If you put a piece of soft iron touching a magnet there is an induced magnet formed in the soft iron. That would happen in this case.

You might be able to improve this by having two thick pieces of soft iron with a non magnetic metal or air gap between them. Get one to touch the permanent magnet and one to touch the electromagnet. Then there should be a lot of attraction.
 
Is that not called an electric motor? electric current flows around metal rotor creating electromagnet in the housing are permanent magnets
 
Last edited:
It is like this: (click on it)

magnets.PNG


The magnets at the top are a circular magnet which we want to attract the normal magnet at the bottom.

The soft iron may help to do this or it may need a horizontal magnetic gap in the soft iron to stop the different patterns of the magnets conflicting with one another.
 

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