Can a Metric be Defined to Make All Balls in R^2 Unbounded with Shrinking Radii?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of defining a metric in \(\mathbb{R}^2\) such that all balls with shrinking radii become unbounded. Participants explore various formulations and properties of metrics, particularly focusing on the relationship between different metrics and their implications for the boundedness of balls.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a metric \(e\) and questions whether it can be defined such that \(\sup_{x\in S_e(r)} d(x,0) = \infty\) for all \(r>0\).
  • Another participant suggests a discrete metric \(e(x,y)\) that results in circles not being bounded with respect to the Euclidean metric, expressing confusion about the nature of the original question.
  • A later reply acknowledges a mistake in the formulation of the boundary of a ball and suggests reformulating the problem in terms of open balls.
  • One participant introduces a new question regarding the existence of a metric \(e\) such that \(B_e(0,\epsilon) \nsubseteq B_d(0,r)\) for all \(\epsilon >0\).
  • Another participant presents a specific metric and describes the resulting 'circles' around the origin as a pair of parallel lines plus two points.
  • Further contributions explore variations of the metric and their implications for the triangle inequality, with one participant proposing a new metric that almost answers the original question.
  • Another participant suggests a metric involving the arctangent function, noting that while some balls can be unbounded, they must remain so as the radius approaches zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of defining such a metric, with some proposing specific metrics and others questioning the underlying assumptions. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing ideas and formulations presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their formulations, including potential mistakes in defining boundaries and the implications of continuity in metrics. There is also a focus on the properties of open versus closed balls in different metric spaces.

jostpuur
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Let's denote the ordinary metric with [itex]d[/itex], so that [itex]d(a,b) = \sqrt{(a_1-b_1)^2 + (a_2-b_2)^2}[/itex], and then let [itex]e[/itex] denote some other metric.

Is it possible to define such [itex]e[/itex] that

[tex] \sup_{x\in S_e(r)} d(x,0) = \infty[/tex]

for all [itex]r>0[/itex], where

[tex] S_e(r) := \{x\in\mathbb{R}^2\;|\; e(x,0)=r\}.[/tex]

UPDATE: Mistake spotted. I didn't intend to define [itex]S_e(r)[/itex] so that it can be an empty set with some [itex]r[/itex]. Post #4 contains a new formulation for the original idea of the problem.
 
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Let e(x,y) = 0 if x=y ;
= 1 otherwise.
Clearly, the circles in e are not bounded with respect to the euclidean metric.
I'm afraid I don't get the tenor of the question at all. If you mean to have a 'continuous' metric , it's not possible. See, however, the hyperbolic plane.
 
Eynstone said:
Let e(x,y) = 0 if x=y ;
= 1 otherwise.
Clearly, the circles in e are not bounded with respect to the euclidean metric.
I'm afraid I don't get the tenor of the question at all. If you mean to have a 'continuous' metric , it's not possible. See, however, the hyperbolic plane.

I made a mistake in my original formulation. I should not have tried to define a boundary of a ball like I did for [itex]S_e(r)[/itex]. I should try to reformulate the problem in terms of open balls...
 
I'll merely ask a new question now, which should aim for the same thing...

If [itex]e[/itex] is a discrete metric, then it has a property that

[tex] B_d(0,\epsilon) \nsubseteq B_e(0,\frac{1}{2})[/tex]

for all [itex]\epsilon>0[/itex].

Now, I'm interested to know that does there exist such metric [itex]e[/itex], and radius [itex]r>0[/itex], that

[tex] B_e(0,\epsilon) \nsubseteq B_d(0,r)[/tex]

for all [itex]\epsilon >0[/itex]?
 
Let e(a,b) = |ay-by| if ax= bx ;
= |ax -bx| otherwise.
The 'circles' around the origin are a pair of parallel lines plus two points.
 
Eynstone said:
Let e(a,b) = |ay-by| if ax= bx ;
= |ax -bx| otherwise.
The 'circles' around the origin are a pair of parallel lines plus two points.

Set a=(0,0), b=(1,1), c=(0,10).

Don't you now get e(a,c) = 10, e(a,b) = 1, and e(b,c) = 1, so that the triangle inequality does not hold?
 
jostpuur said:
Set a=(0,0), b=(1,1), c=(0,10).
Don't you now get e(a,c) = 10, e(a,b) = 1, and e(b,c) = 1, so that the triangle inequality does not hold?
Sorry for the slip.
How about
e(a,b) = 0 if a=b;
= 1 + |ay-by|/(|ay-by|+1 ) if ax= bx & a not equal to b;
= 2+|ax -bx| otherwise.
This almost answers the question with r=1 : balls with radius less than one contain only the origin.
Note that the origin itself lies in every ball centred at it (in any metric) & we can't get rid of the origin.
 
Eynstone said:
...

This almost answers the question with r=1 : balls with radius less than one contain only the origin.

I noticed similar problems earlier.

My first idea to define a metric, such that some balls would become unbounded, was

[tex] e(a,b) = |a_2-b_2| + |\tan^{-1}(a_1) - \tan^{-1}(b_1)|[/tex]

Now [itex]B_e(0,\frac{\pi}{2})[/itex] stretches to infinity, but with radius [itex]r < \frac{\pi}{2}[/itex] the balls become bounded, and with [itex]r\to 0[/itex] the balls become arbitrarily small, and in the end the metric is equivalent with the Euclidean metric.

The problem is not only to come up with such metric that some balls are unbounded. They must remain unbounded when the radius approaches zero.
 

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