Can a photon's energy be so high that it creates a black hole?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the question of whether a photon can possess enough energy to create a black hole. Participants explore the implications of energy being frame-dependent and the requirements for black hole formation.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a photon cannot form a black hole due to its energy being frame-dependent, meaning different observers would measure different energies for the same photon.
  • Others argue that a mass is required to form a black hole, implying that a photon, which is massless, cannot meet this criterion.
  • A participant questions whether objects with frame-dependent energy can create a frame-invariant object like a black hole, suggesting this has not been clearly addressed in their education.
  • Another participant reflects on the implications of a cosmic ray proton's perspective, noting that its kinetic energy could lead to misconceptions about the mass of a massive star and its ability to collapse into a black hole.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the possibility of a photon forming a black hole, with some asserting it is impossible while others explore the implications of frame-dependence. The discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions about frame-dependence and the requirements for black hole formation that are not fully explored. The discussion also touches on the implications of relativistic effects on mass and energy perception.

Dragonfall
Messages
1,023
Reaction score
5
Is it possible for a photon to be so energetic that it forms a black hole?

If so, how fast would that black hole be moving?
 
Science news on Phys.org
Dragonfall said:
Is it possible for a photon to be so energetic that it forms a black hole?

It is not, as the energy of a photon is frame-dependent. An observer moving away from the emitter would measure the photon as having a lower amount of energy than an observer moving towards the emitter. In addition, a photon has no reference frame that we can assign to it.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: anorlunda
We need a mass to form a black hole
 
Drakkith said:
It is not, as the energy of a photon is frame-dependent.
Wow, I love PF because I learn every day from people like @Drakkith

Do I understand correctly that objects (like photons) with frame-dependent energy can not form a frame-invariant object (like a BH) seen by observers in all frames? None of my teachers ever mentioned that implication of frame-dependent versus frame-independent. It is so simple and profound.
 
anorlunda said:
Do I understand correctly that objects (like photons) with frame-dependent energy can not form a frame-invariant object (like a BH) seen by observers in all frames? None of my teachers ever mentioned that implication of frame-dependent versus frame-independent. It is so simple and profound.

That is my understanding, but I'm not formally educated in relativity. It's just something I also picked up here at PF. :biggrin:

It does make sense given that a cosmic ray proton traveling near the speed of light may see a massive star as having an staggeringly huge amount of kinetic energy. If the object's invariant mass was dependent on its kinetic energy, this star should collapse into a black hole. But it doesn't.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Dragonfall

Similar threads

Graduate Measuring the speed of light in a straight line
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
2K
Undergrad How Black Holes Absorb Light Despite Photons Being Massless
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
High School A photon always travels in a black hole
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
Undergrad Can light be reflected in a black hole?
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
High School Is there a white hole inside every black hole?
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
High School How can a black hole absorb matter?
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
High School Could Black Hole Collisions Trigger a Cyclical Big Bang and Universe Rebirth?
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
Undergrad On the possibility of exploding a black hole
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
Undergrad Are there inherent limits to Interferometer size?
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
High School Confusion regarding black hole spin
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
5K