Can anyone provide suggestions for a book on prose-writing?

[Eclair_de_XII]

All that I'm able to find online are various articles and books that claim to instruct the reader on how to write good prose, pitfalls to avoid during the writing process, and things of that nature. I find the wealth of resources of this nature extremely bothersome. All I'm looking for are basic rules and conventions to follow when writing fiction in prosaic format. I have no idea how to write fiction properly. The only things I have to go off of are my rather meager collection of books. If I chose to use those books as a reference, I would have to infer how novels are properly written. I'd very much prefer studying a handbook that explicitly details how prose is typically written, rather than analyzing and reverse-engineering the process from someone else's work.

 

[jedishrfu]

My son's friend pointed us to books by Blake Snyder called Saves the Cat. There are three books in the series but the first one and maybe the second would help with writing fiction.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1932907009/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Snyder was a successful Hollywood screenwriter who developed a kind of cookbook formula for creating movie scripts. He indexed a large collection of movies placing them into 10 genres and from there into subgenres based on certain differences in the story subtype.

https://slate.com/culture/2013/07/hollywood-and-blake-snyders-screenwriting-book-save-the-cat.html

Later a novelist, Jessica Brody took Blake's method and applied it to writing novels.

You can learn more here in this blog article:

https://www.dabblewriter.com/articles/plotting-your-novel-using-save-the-cat

One of the takeaways I got was that many movies follow the same plotline but changeup the characters and backstory while keeping similar beatsheets. One prominant example was how Monsters Inc was the same as the Matrix.

This next article compares Monsters Inc with Monsters University and how they folllow the beats of different genres:

https://savethecat.com/about-the-beats/two-monster-hits-two-different-genres

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

Thanks for sharing these links.

I have a working conceptual outline of a short-story already, though. The problem I have revolves around putting that outline into prose. I'm trying to look for a book that details the rules and conventions of prose-writing.

Such a book would tell the reader why it isn't typically acceptable to insert pieces of dialogues from two different characters into one paragraph, or why dialogue lines are typically at the beginning of a paragraph rather than at the end. I'm not looking for books on how to structure a story, but rather how to structure that story into prose format.

 

[jedishrfu]

Yes, I see. I know its common convention to place larger dialogue from a given character into its own paragraph. Readers know that a new paragraph with quotes means another character is speaking.

I've seen dialogue where there will be a string of paragraphs where only the first couple identify the characters and the remaining ones alternate between them without specifying which one is talking. However you need to identify the character speaking each if you have three or more characters talking because the reader will get confused.

For short speaking things like

"Watch out! Right full rudder!" said the captain. "Okay captain" replied the pilot.

I looked for other references and found these:

https://karenkrossing.com/for-writers/grammar-tips-for-fiction-writers/

prose style discussion:

https://jerichowriters.com/prose-style/

As a writer, its better to find some online resources and use tools like grammarly to check your writing. That's what I do. Some firends have suggested Scrivener as a good tool for organizing things. I have it but haven't really used it much. Right now, I use Obsidian, a markdown based note taking tool that allow you to construct a network of your notes into something resembling wikipedia. I've heard some people use it to create their backstory and character histories as they write.

There are a lot of good writer podcasts too but you'll need to search for them via google. I had a list in my notes but don't have access to them right now.

 

[hutchphd]

Strunk and White "Elements of Style"
And read E.B. White essays. Like: https://genius.com/E-b-white-once-more-to-the-lake-annotated

 

[jedishrfu]

Here's some websites and podcasts for writers:

http://www.writingexcuses.com/

and this one that lists many others:

https://thewritelife.com/writing-podcasts/

 

[gmax137]

I don't think there is any such book, or any such rules. Or if such rules are laid out somewhere, any real author would find them funny and break them at will. Writing is a creative act, not a formula.

If you're still in school, take more electives in humanities. If you're not in school, see if you can find a creative writing class in a local community college or elsewhere. In either case, spend more time just writing and then self-criticizing your prose.

Read more. Try writing your own stories in the style of authors you like. Then try it in the style of authors you don't like.

One of the takeaways I got was that many movies follow the same plotline but changeup the characters and backstory while keeping similar beatsheets.

I think this is why nobody goes to see movies anymore.

 

[jedishrfu]

I don't think Saves the Cat movie similarity has anything to do with why no one goes. Audience numbers are down because of the pandemic, the young age demographicfor moviegoers and because of streaming.

Why pay a month's worth of streaming to see one unknown new movie in glorious technicolor with surround sound and 3D effects if you can see several great older movies on streaming.

 

[Eclair_de_XII]

Writing is a creative act, not a formula.
(...)
Read more. Try writing your own stories in the style of authors you like. Then try it in the style of authors you don't like.

Thanks. I was stressing over how to write a story properly, without stopping to consider that no "correct" way may even exist. I'll keep the rest of your advice in mind, besides.

If you're still in school...

I'm not, but I wish I were. Am I delusional for thinking that having a subject to study properly in college would give me purpose in life?

If you're not in school, see if you can find a creative writing class in a local community college or elsewhere. In either case, spend more time just writing and then self-criticizing your prose.

As I am low on funds, I'll opt for the latter until I am able to transition to a job that can allow me to afford the former.

Why pay a month's worth of streaming to see one unknown new movie in glorious technicolor with surround sound and 3D effects if you can see several great older movies on streaming.

The cynical part of me thinks that it is partially because people looking for entertainment are so lost in their nostalgia that they refuse to see anything that deviates from the familiar. Then they spend time complaining about how the supposedly familiar doesn't quite capture that same feeling they normally associate with the familiar. Then they end up miserable again; this is partially just me projecting my views on fictional media and the like, by the way. In my view, people who remake and rehash don't sell movies; they sell nostalgia.

That aside, there are some benefits to watching movies via streaming, such as getting to see reviews and opinions of a given motion film before spending a little more than a month's worth of streaming services on watching it. And most movies find their way into these streaming services anyway, which invalidates the initial purchase of the ticket used to view it in theaters some months previously.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Before writing, you should read. True for papers, true for this. In particular, you should read the FOA (Funding Opportunity Announcement) for the grant you are applying for. Sometimes they are called slightly different things.

For US federally funded research, you need to read the eligibility section carefully. If you are not eligible, you are not eligible, There is no "lets cut him some slack."

 

[gmax137]

Notwithstanding my previous comment, @Eclair_de_XII you may like this little book: "The First Five Pages" by Lukeman.

The First Five Pages reveals the necessary elements of good writing, whether it be fiction, nonfiction, journalism, or poetry, and points out errors to be avoided, such as
* A weak opening hook
* Overuse of adjectives and adverbs
* Flat or forced metaphors or similes
* Melodramatic, commonplace or confusing dialogue
* Undeveloped characterizations and lifeless settings
* Uneven pacing and lack of progression

 

[Vanadium 50]

I find the idea of a "story" involving the details of grant proposals kind of hard to swallow.
1. It violates the rule "write what you know".
2. I don't think it will be "a gripping, rip-roaring yarn through the exciting yet dangerous world of grant proposals". Will the sequel be a tale of Environmental Impact Statements?

If there really is a story behind this, I'd shelve this idea and pick another one.

 

[jedishrfu]

Notwithstanding my previous comment, @Eclair_de_XII you may like this little book: "The First Five Pages" by Lukeman.

I read some of this book and its quite good. The key takeaway is that publishers get so many manuscripts they look to rejecting them on the first obvious error they see:
- Notebook paper no,
- paper smudges no,
- bad grammar no,
- spelling no.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I know of no case where bad grammar caused a grant to be rejected. I know of a few where it raised some eyebrows:

"We will use this funding to procure the services of a chemist, a woman, and a glassnlower."

 

[gmax137]

How or when did this thread morph off into writing grant proposals? Are there missing posts or am I just missing them??

 

[symbolipoint]

Here is a suggestion, maybe already given, but is a bit weak:
Go to* a college class, maybe through some "Open University" type of system, for some kind of creative writing. Whatever Langauge Arts courses you have had in the past would not hurt you now to have had them. Maybe he who instructs for your current course or class may have ways to stimulate your thinking.

*What I mean there is, register for and attend a creative writing course.

 

[apostolosdt]

As a freshman (but... years ago!), in our English Composition class, we studied from Brooks and Warren's "Modern Rhetoric" and Perrin and Emmitt's "Writer's Guide and Index to English", in combination with "The Norton Reader". Perrin is classic, I guess you can only find it in libraries.

 

[symbolipoint]

I just now came upon this topic very late, after only today seeing and giving a brief response about your question of Science Fiction Writing. Again, my similar suggestion but additionally, if you could enroll in and attend a creative writing course intended for adult students, a course may be instructed as a forum class, at least in part. That way, you could get advice from instructor AND other attending students during class-meeting time. This can be very beneficial but you need to be able to tolerate and ponder on criticism.

 

[Drakkith]

There are plenty of books on the 'rules' (except for grammar, they're more guidelines than rules) of writing, just like there are books and other material on how to draw, paint, do pottery, watercolor, etc. Just because you can break a rule doesn't mean it isn't a rule or that it's there for no reason. Rules in all creative arts exist because they are usually a good idea to follow unless you're experienced and you know how to bend, break, or subvert the rules to make a better work of art.

Grammar related rules are usually better off followed to the letter. If you can't spell, use punctuation correctly, or structure a paragraph well then people won't be willing to even finish the first page, let alone the first chapter. 'Rules' regarding scene composition, chapter structure, and story structure all sort of open up more as you increase in scale to allow the author more freedom to do what they want.

Other elements, such as style, word choice, overall language complexity, and others are mostly free from rules.

In terms of prose, there are many books on grammar, style, structure, etc. Want a book that teaches you how specifically how to write engaging 'scenes' in your work? They have those. Not sure how paragraphs and sentences and semicolons work? They have books for those too. Looking for tips on improving your style? Yup, they have those. Want to focus on action in your scenes? Or tension? Or drama? Books on all those topics exist.

Some of my favorites:
Make a Scene: Crafting a Powerful Story One Scene at a Time
Characters and Viewpoint (by Orson Scott Card of Ender's Game and other works)
Conflict and Suspense
Grammatically Correct: The Essential Guide to Spelling, Style, Usage, Grammar, and Punctuation
Plot & Structure: Techniques and Exercises for Crafting a Plot That Grips Readers from Start to Finish