My Romantic Woes: A Story of Failed First Dates

[FlexGunship]

Okay, I really need to vent... this is killing me.

The Premise:

So, I'm at the age where I don't get to meet many women. The ones you meet are bars are not always top notch, and I don't really bump into any at work. I'm going to share my most recent romantic encounter in hopes that someone will say: "Wow, that's terrible. I can't believe that." Because, frankly, I cannot believe what happened!

So, I met a local girl through a dating website. We got along really well through phone calls and the occasional text message. I would say that we were getting along greatly, in fact.​

The Backdrop:

We decide to meet for our first date at a local sports bar. I told her I could grab a drink at the bar, and meet her at the door when she arrived if she would just give me a quick call. She texts me: "You're there? My best best best friend is there on a bad first date."

I look around, and sure enough, there's a girl with an overweight balding guy looking like she is having a terrible time. I text back: "Found her. Body language is obvious. Horrible date." My date (let's call her Mary) texts her friend (let's call her Harriet) to say I'm at the bar. Suddenly I hear laughing and she waves. I wave back and smile. Then I get a text that says: "Harriet thinks you're really cute."

So, I figure I'm sitting pretty. My date arrives and we go sit at a table. We joke around and things are going awesomely; no awkwardness and both having a good time. I say: "I'm really sorry your friend is having such a bad night. I wish there were something I could do." And Mary says "Well, maybe we could invite them over. Maybe a double-date won't be so bad." She sneaks a kiss, and I'm forced to agree. Hey! I'm a nice guy, what can I say?!​

The Friend:

She invites them over, and I try to keep the table entertained. We're joking and having a good time. Harriet's date hits the restroom, and the gossip flies. Harriet tells me how jealous she is of Mary and how she wants the date to end right away.​

The Plan:

So I suggest the following: let's end our meals, the girls leave together, and us guys to go our cars. I wait for about 2 or 3 minutes, and we can meet up somewhere. The plan is good, we agree to do it, and will meet at a different bar 5 minutes after the other guy leaves. Every goes fine. We leave, and I meet them 5 minutes later. I say: "Harriet, I'm really sorry about your bad date... how about I buy us all drinks?"

We are in agreement, and Harriet INSISTS we go to a SPECIFIC bar (one that I didn't know anything about). I agree. We head over and sit at the bar and I order us some drinks (it was amateur comedian night, so there was a two drink minimum; I end up paying for 6 drinks). Again, we're laughing having a good time. I felt like I was on top of the world!​

The Ex's Ex:

Then Harriet freaks out. She says: "Oh my God, that's my ex-husband's ex-girlfriend behind the bar." I cannot possibly fathom why this matters AT ALL. I have no idea why we care about that information so I chuckle and say "Small world, I guess." Mary smiles, and she and I go back to casual date-style flirting. Harriet, however, is hard on edge. Her demeanor changes. Even though she is still trying to joke around and have a good time she keeps looking around for this other girl.​

The Explosion:

A half hour or so goes by, and Mary leans in for a kiss. We kiss (just a peck, I swear) and Harriet loses her cool. She yells "Um, can you not...!" I thought she was joking around, but she wasn't! I asked her "What's the problem?" And she starts rambling about things like: "Now my ex is going to know I'm with a guy who's kissing my best friend. How am I going to explain this. She's going to think I'm such a loser." I calmly tell her to quiet down since there's a performance going on in the room.

I turn to my date and ask her "Do you know what this is about?" And she says that she doesn't. Mary doesn't really know why Harriet is flipping out.​

The Departure:

So I pay for our drinks and we leave abruptly. We get outside, and Harriet starts yelling at Mary and me again blathering about what he ex-husband will think, or what his ex-girlfriend will think. I very calmly interrupt her and say with a little anger: "Harriet, I really appreciate you making our date all about your social problems." She decides she's going to leave and I offer to walk her to her car (sine it's late and we're in an urban area). But she wants nothing to do with me and storms off.​

The Second First Date:

Mary says she needs another drink, so we hit another bar for a beer. Everything goes back to normal and we're having a great time. She tells me how much she's looking forward to seeing me again and (for the first time in my experience) we set up a second date while we're still on our first date! Yay! I walk her to her car, we share a romantic moment, and she drives off.​

The Punchline:

Two days later, she says she's not sure if we can date because Harriet hates me and Harriet is her best friend.​

The Final Score:

• I save her friend from a bad date
• Invite her friend to hang out with us so she won't be lonely
• I let the friend pick her favorite bar
• I buy the friend some drinks
• The friend basically spits in my face
• Still have a great time with my date!
• Friend says we're not allowed to date

 

[cristo]

Well, there's not really much you can do, to be honest, you just have to let her make up her mind.

Whether you'd want to date a girl who drink-drives is another question...

 

[FlexGunship]

Well, there's not really much you can do, to be honest, you just have to let her make up her mind.

No, I know that. I mostly just want someone else to go "wow, weird." I mean... I can't be the only guy who totally doesn't understand the situation, right? Firstly, why would anyone on Earth care what their ex-husband's ex-girlfriend thought?! I don't even care what my OWN ex-girlfriend's think... certainly not my ex-girlfriends' ex-boyfriends think.

Whether you'd want to date a girl who drink-drives is another question...

Hah, fair enough. I should mention that our four drinks covered the span of a meal and about 5 hours (6 to about 11). So, I'm actually confident that's not a serious issue.

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

this made me chuckle in disbelief... you have no idea how many times this kind of sh*t actually happens
"i'd love to but (insert childish dramatic excuse here)"

 

[FlexGunship]

this made me chuckle in disbelief... you have no idea how many times this kind of sh*t actually happens
"i'd love to but (insert childish dramatic excuse here)"

Well, we're still in contact. She's just seriously concerned about what her friend thinks. I hate sounding sexist (when directly compared, women are consistently better than men), but are all women predisposed to this type of behavior?

My friend dated a girl that I hated ('cause she was a b*tch), but I sucked it up. That's what you do for a friend. I bought her birthday gifts and told her she looked nice when she got all "tramped up".

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

Well, we're still in contact. She's just seriously concerned about what her friend thinks. I hate sounding sexist (when directly compared, women are consistently better than men), but are all women predisposed to this type of behavior?

My friend dated a girl that I hated ('cause she was a b*tch), but I sucked it up. That's what you do for a friend. I bought her birthday gifts and told her she looked nice when she got all "tramped up".

very common for them to put their friends thoughts ahead of their own
dont ask me why but her girlfrieds will always win over you and herself

 

[FlexGunship]

very common for them to put their friends thoughts ahead of their own
dont ask me why but her girlfrieds will always win over you and herself

Seems like her friend Harriet should've been more appreciative. I mean, I saved her from her bad date. And when she was bummed out, I invited her to join us. THEN I bought her two drinks.

It's like there was no action kind enough to win her over!

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

Seems like her friend Harriet should've been more appreciative. I mean, I saved her from her bad date. And when she was bummed out, I invited her to join us. THEN I bought her two drinks.

It's like there was no action kind enough to win her over!

Maybe you got her too tipsy, and we all get emotional when we're drunk

dont forget she said she was jealous, so if she can't be happy no one else can. especially her friends

 

[Borek]

Think about it this way - would you like to date someone with such a toxic friend?

I agree this is weird, but there are plenty of weirdos.

 

[Gokul43201]

Think about it this way - would you like to date someone with such a toxic friend?

More importantly, why would you want to date somebody that bases their life choices on the whims of a (toxic) friend?

 

[Dembadon]

More importantly, why would you want to date somebody that bases their life choices on the whims of a (toxic) friend?

Bingo!

 

[Topher925]

I was really hoping for a much more entertaining ending. The way you built the story up in the beginning made me expect something really dramatic to happen like Harriet was a hot Russian spy who wooed you and Mary into helping her with a secret mission that entailed a night of precarious murder and copulation.

But same old same old. Woman are crazy, so are their friends, and guys put up with it because there's nothing else to do.

 

[FlexGunship]

More importantly, why would you want to date somebody that bases their life choices on the whims of a (toxic) friend?

Hmm. Good point. I mean, I told Mary I was willing to apologize to Harriet for being rude. I understand the principle of associative dating.

 

[FlexGunship]

I was really hoping for a much more entertaining ending. The way you built the story up in the beginning made me expect something really dramatic to happen like Harriet was a hot Russian spy who wooed you and Mary into helping her with a secret mission that entailed a night of precarious murder and copulation.

Oh, sorry. Harriet wasn't particularly attractive which is one of the reasons I tried to be extra nice to her. As far as a night "entailed" with things... there certainly wasn't any murder.

 

[BobG]

This whole thing sounds like the female version of a wingman. First the wingman scouting you at the bar pre-date to see if you scoped out every female in the place, picked your nose, etc. You passed that hurdle.

Then the not quite sure phase; hence the wingman display at the second bar with a bartender the wingman had probably never seen in her life.

Then this part:

Mary says she needs another drink, so we hit another bar for a beer. Everything goes back to normal and we're having a great time. She tells me how much she's looking forward to seeing me again and (for the first time in my experience) we set up a second date while we're still on our first date! Yay! I walk her to her car, we share a romantic moment, and she drives off.

You almost made it!

Alas, upon further consideration, she fell back on her wingman again. Who knows what the wingman really thinks of you. The important thing is that she provides an excuse for Mary not to date you.

 

[FlexGunship]

This whole thing sounds like the female version of a wingman. First the wingman scouting you at the bar pre-date to see if you scoped out every female in the place, picked your nose, etc. You passed that hurdle.

Alas, upon further consideration, she fell back on her wingman again. Who knows what the wingman really thinks of you. The important thing is that she provides an excuse for Mary not to date you.

Yeah, maybe. I felt like the connection was pretty decent. I should emphasize that I didn't really initiate the bar-room kiss. In fact, "Mary" and I are still in touch.

I guess its not impossible, I just feel like... I don't know... I've been rejected before. I know when a date is going poorly. I'm not oblivious. Frankly, I think if I hadn't been so nice to her friend things would be fine.

 

[Pyrrhus]

In retrospect, I am not sure if I would have saved Mary's friend at all from her date or invite her over for "double date". Nothing wrong with that you did, but you sort of converted a one-on-one situation to a two-on-one, which can sometimes blow up in your face. Trust me is hard enough to juggle multiple girls, worse to juggle them together at the same time.

My advice, don't lose contact with Mary, but do keep looking for others.

 

[Pengwuino]

Why is it that girls can have relationships with friends that seemingly are more important than their bf/gf-type relationships! It's silly. When you date someone, you should just be dating that person. Not that person and everyone they know.

It's just crazy that I've never heard of 1 guy, ever, who needed or even cared if his friends liked his girlfriend. On the other hand, most girls I know have to have a guy who is liked by everyone. What is this nonsense? Most girls like to pretend they don't see guys as a "prize" and a status symbol... but no one's buying it.

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

Why is it that girls can have relationships with friends that seemingly are more important than their bf/gf-type relationships! It's silly. When you date someone, you should just be dating that person. Not that person and everyone they know.

It's just crazy that I've never heard of 1 guy, ever, who needed or even cared if his friends liked his girlfriend. On the other hand, most girls I know have to have a guy who is liked by everyone. What is this nonsense? Most girls like to pretend they don't see guys as a "prize" and a status symbol... but no one's buying it.

if anything, girls look at guys MORE as a prize than guys do... in my humblest of opinions

 

[FlexGunship]

In retrospect, I am not sure if I would have saved Mary's friend at all from her date or invite her over for "double date". Nothing wrong with that you did, but you sort of converted a one-on-one situation to a two-on-one, which can sometimes blow up in your face.

You might be right. It was more Mary's idea (it's hard to remember to use the fake names!). The conversation basically went like this:

• Her: I was so nervous, but I'm having a great time now.
• Me: I'm glad. I'm really sorry your friend is having such a terrible time.
• Her: Yeah. Normally I would come to her rescue with a phone call.
• Me: Heh, yeah.
• Her: Do you think they could join us for dinner? They've already eaten, so I don't think they'll be here long.
• Me: Uhh...
• Her: Please?? <leans over and gives me a very sweet kiss>
• Me: Yeah. Okay. What are their names anyway?

Maybe I shouldn't have fallen for it, but I was still in the mode of trying to make a good first impression. This conversation took place about 30 minutes after we arrived but before we had ordered food. I guess I just thought it was going to be dinner and we would all go our separate ways... but Harriet wanted to stay...

What can you do?! "Uh... go away, now. We're on a date?"

Actually, I was really disgusted with Harriet right away. She was rude to her date. Wouldn't look at him. Actually made a joke at the expense of his weight. Then she started showing a picture of her son and turns to him and says: "Oh, by the way, I have a son." He wasn't really happy, but I tried to make light of it and offered a quiet little "Surprise!" to lighten the mood.

Trust me is hard enough to juggle multiple girls, worse to juggle them together at the same time.

My advice, don't lose contact with Mary, but do keep looking for others.

Yeah, I've never really had a problem with "the friends" liking me in the past. I wasn't expecting any problems. I a pretty social guy, and relatively amicable. I play diplomat at work a lot and I can deal with fairly abrasive people.

Mary is keeping in touch with me. I'm thinking about asking her if she'd like to try another "first date" and call the first one a technical foul.

It's just crazy that I've never heard of 1 guy, ever, who needed or even cared if his friends liked his girlfriend. On the other hand, most girls I know have to have a guy who is liked by everyone.

One of my best friends had a terrible girlfriend. Or at least she and I didn't get along. But I was never rude to either of them about it. I simply didn't interact with her. It didn't stop me from accepting invitations to events. I don't know... I always just thought "he's my friend" and never really considered any other aspects.

 

[FlexGunship]

Okay... crazy plan. What do you think?

I hate stalker-ish behavior, so I try to keep attempts at communication symmetrical. If she sends me a text I reply with one or two in kind. If she calls once, I call once.

Right now, I have a free call that I haven't used.

I was thinking of intentionally calling while she's at work to leave her a voicemail. The contents would be roughly this: "Hey Mary, I was just thinking that we never really got a chance to have our first date. How about if we try for this weekend? You said you liked wine tasting, so I was thinking we could do that."

AND OPTIONALLY:

[STRIKE]"Maybe it would be best if you didn't mention where we are going to Harriet. You know, so we be assured of our privacy."[/STRIKE]

"Let's just not tell Harriet(!) where we're going this time. <friendly chuckle>" (Crap... wrote her real name the first time.)

I should emphasize that Mary has already apologized for Harriet's behavior, and wanted to make sure I knew that I didn't do anything wrong. So, I think I know what she's thinking. And I don't think she would take offence to asking hr not to tell Harriet where we are going.

EDIT: Mary is an incredibly sweet girl. I know I can't "save" her from her best friend (it's a meaningless endeavor). I guess, I just feel like maybe Harriet would try to ruin anything good that Mary has, and part of me feels like defending her if I can.

 

[ThomasT]

Mary is an incredibly sweet girl. I know I can't "save" her from her best friend (it's a meaningless endeavor). I guess, I just feel like maybe Harriet would try to ruin anything good that Mary has, and part of me feels like defending her if I can.

I'm just taking a break from the "Temporal symmetry solves all quantum paradoxes" thread. Discussing with Careful. (I'm assuming he's not called Careful for nothing. Then again, he, himself, is calling himself that.)

Anyway, I've benefitted from some of your posts, FlexGunship (itself a curious nom de plume). So, I read your OP. Wow ... weird. But entertaining.

Best of luck with this. You seem like a very able guy, so I'm sure you'll find a solution or will have some more entertaining stuff to post wrt this particular situation. I can't wait to read it, as I have virtually no social life. Not to worry, I'm 62 and don't need one.

 

[BobG]

EDIT: Mary is an incredibly sweet girl. I know I can't "save" her from her best friend (it's a meaningless endeavor). I guess, I just feel like maybe Harriet would try to ruin anything good that Mary has, and part of me feels like defending her if I can.

Oh, my! Harriet has my undying respect and admiration. What an incredible wingman! Any bad traits Mary may possibly ever have are vacuumed up by Harriet. Mary will always be incredibly sweet while Harriet will always be incredibly evil.

And I say this as a person who was a pretty good wingman myself - in other words, my job was to intercept and deter the female wingman. I once went so far as to have sex with the female wingman to keep her out of the way of my friend and his female target! I even went so far as to move in with the female wingman and eventually went through the worst break-up of my life when the female wingman finally left me and moved to a completely different state!

And, more importantly, things went well for my friend. Two weeks after he hooked up with his female target, they eloped, quit their jobs, and headed off to the West in his car. Never heard from them again - not even a postcard. Which just adds points to my performance as a wing man! I was still serving long after he'd completely disappeared from the scene!

 

[FlexGunship]

Oh, my! Harriet has my undying respect and admiration. What an incredible wingman! Any bad traits Mary may possibly ever have are vacuumed up by Harriet. Mary will always be incredibly sweet while Harriet will always be incredibly evil.

Err, I appreciate the idea you're pushing. I'm not discounting it. But I feel like maybe I've done an injustice. After Harriet stormed off (something decidedly un-wingman-like), Mary and I still went out and had a good time.

It would seem like that would've been a good time for her to leave. Or at least stop holding hands, or cuddling in booths, or kissing me. I like to pretend I'm a man's man (whether or not I am), so I readily reciprocate affection, but I don't tend to initiate it and it didn't suddenly fall in short supply for the rest of the night.

Like I said, BobG, you might be correct. But your theory really only fits two or three of the actual facts. I mean, it would require that Harriet actually stage a fake date, and pretend to have it go wrong for the purpose of setting up (prior to my arrival) the excuse to allow Mary to force an intrusion; then they have to pretend to want to ditch the other guy and meet me somewhere else (a good time to ditch me, actually); and finally, Harriet needs to fake an outburst and yell at both of us and storm off leaving Mary and I alone (to the benefit of?). It just sounds very conspiracy-like.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Flex, I wouldn't walk away from this woman, I would run. However, in the OP you said that you don't meet that many women. If that is the only reason you are reluctant to let this one go, I would say do it anyway. However, if you are drawn to this woman in particular and not simply desperate, then I would say that you are privileged to see while single some of the worst you would see if you were married. Good luck to you.

 

[BobG]

I wouldn't run away.

Incredibly enough, I'd ask for another date with no mention of Harriet at all. Then I'd see what happened.

I obviously think there's a good chance Jimmy might be right. Just not good enough not to look in the box again.

 

[FlexGunship]

Flex, I wouldn't walk away from this woman, I would run. However, in the OP you said that you don't meet that many women. If that is the only reason you are reluctant to let this one go, I would say do it anyway. However, if you are drawn to this woman in particular and not simply desperate, then I would say that you are privileged to see while single some of the worst you would see if you were married. Good luck to you.

No, no, no... it's not so much that I don't meet many women. It's that I don't care for most of them. I was resisting the urge to admit that I use dating websites, but there it is. The fact is that, when using a dating website, you have to go out on 20 first dates to find a decent person.

One is missing teeth, the other is secretly four times her disclosed weight, still another doesn't speak English. I've actually been on LOTS of first dates this year (much to the dismay of my personal finances), and rarely do I find someone who has intelligence, a sweet disposition, and the same life goals as me (i.e. start a family).

Mary is very sweet, very intelligent, wants to settle down in the future, and likes kids. Not to mention she's awfully pretty. She's my 1-in-20 for this year. And out of those twenty, they were all kind of 1-in-100s for their own reasons.

Frankly she's rare, and I've been on enough bad dates to appreciate a good woman. Do I want to hunker down and wait another year to meet the next Mary who will (CERTAINLY) have her own drawbacks and shortcomings?

EDIT: Since I'm divulging secrets about my life, might as well not quite stop there. Mary explained to me, before our date, that she had gotten out of a long abusive relationship and that she wanted to get out of it for a long time but couldn't do it. I suspect that Harriet was either supporting the relationship's existence, or was too busy with her marriage to care. I certainly don't know, but people are complicated; not usually very simple at all.

 

[BobG]

I've actually been on LOTS of first dates this year (much to the dismay of my personal finances), ...

One of the rules of internet dating is that the first meeting should be something very cheap; such as coffee and a walk. I'm kind of surprised that the women you're meeting on dating websites would even agree to a real first date with someone they haven't yet met in person.

That would also help explain some of the strange goings on if that night was the first time you'd met in person.

I know quite a few men are more traditional and think the first date has to really be a first date, but it's not something that's usually expected in the online dating scene.

 

[FlexGunship]

I know quite a few men are more traditional and think the first date has to really be a first date, but it's not something that's usually expected in the online dating scene.

She picked the place. Don't know what to say. I've done the "meet in the park" and "grab a coffee" thing. I know where you're coming from. She was meeting me after work, and wanted to grab a bite to eat. The place we met (a sports bar) is a $9-meal type of place.

I feel like I'm defending my behavior a lot. I guess I didn't think I botched anything up. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ask Mary for another date.

And leave the stalker issues aside. Call her. Let her know you like her.

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

No, no, no... it's not so much that I don't meet many women. It's that I don't care for most of them. I was resisting the urge to admit that I use dating websites, but there it is. The fact is that, when using a dating website, you have to go out on 20 first dates to find a decent person.

One is missing teeth, the other is secretly four times her disclosed weight, still another doesn't speak English. I've actually been on LOTS of first dates this year (much to the dismay of my personal finances), and rarely do I find someone who has intelligence, a sweet disposition, and the same life goals as me (i.e. start a family).

Mary is very sweet, very intelligent, wants to settle down in the future, and likes kids. Not to mention she's awfully pretty. She's my 1-in-20 for this year. And out of those twenty, they were all kind of 1-in-100s for their own reasons.

Frankly she's rare, and I've been on enough bad dates to appreciate a good woman. Do I want to hunker down and wait another year to meet the next Mary who will (CERTAINLY) have her own drawbacks and shortcomings?

Aint that the truth!
i think your first option of calling while she's at work and leaving her a message is a good way to approach things, this way if she doesn't respond back you get the hint and cut your losses, on another note she isn't forced to reply right away and isn't put on the spot, and she has time to think about it, its probably the way i would do things
but i have incredibly bad luck with relationships so take that as you will

 

[Evo]

EDIT: Since I'm divulging secrets about my life, might as well not quite stop there. Mary explained to me, before our date, that she had gotten out of a long abusive relationship and that she wanted to get out of it for a long time but couldn't do it. I suspect that Harriet was either supporting the relationship's existence, or was too busy with her marriage to care. I certainly don't know, but people are complicated; not usually very simple at all.

I wasn't going to comment on her co-dependant relationship with Harriet because maybe it's some weird thing they like to do, but this is a serious red flag. Any woman that's remained in an abusive relationship is bad news. RUN! RUN AWAY! Usually men that are abusive in a relationship showed some abuse even before the relationship got serious, but the woman decided to overlook it. For example, not hit her, but got angry and got a bit too close for comfort. Or too loud, there's verbal abuse too.

It's your life, but since you're asking for opinions, Mary has mental baggage that might look like a couple of carry-ons right now, but she may have several trunks hidden in the closet.

 

[BobG]

I feel like I'm defending my behavior a lot. I guess I didn't think I botched anything up. Maybe I'm wrong.

I wouldn't say you botched anything up. I'd say the most important item to plan for a first meeting in online dating is how to get heck out of the date when it goes bad. I think the evening you described was weird, perhaps because having Harriet already planning to be at the same bar just presented a good opportunity to merge two objectives - both Harriet and Mary had a way out of their dates.

In any event, the whole story puts things in a different light (actually, I guess your original post gave the whole story and I just glossed over the premise). You had some positive results. Plus, Mary is still keeping communications open (if there was no interest, she'd almost certainly send the e-mail letting you know she didn't think things would work out).

I say ask her out for another date and see what happens.

And Evo's warnings are worth noting. But with a caveat. How did she get out of the relationship and how long ago? If she got out of it on her own, it's a good sign. There is a tendency for people to have to be rescued from abusive relationships. In other words, they fall into an affair with someone who's primary attribute is that they get them out of the abusive relationship - they jump from the pot into the frying pan.

Browsing online dating websites isn't the usual way women escape from abusive relationships, so your main concern is probably how long ago and how much emotional baggage is she still carrying around from it.

 

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

(if there was no interest, she'd almost certainly send the e-mail letting you know she didn't think things would work out).

Wrong, she would ignore you... unfortunately

 

[FlexGunship]

Wrong, she would ignore you... unfortunately

Yeah. I'm not ignored yet. I still get smiley texts, and she called to wish me luck at bowling last night (I'm in a candle-pin league).

Although, I haven't heard from her today, at all.