Can Coal Deposits Explain the Fermi Paradox?

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SUMMARY

The forum discussion centers on the relationship between coal deposits and the development of technological civilizations, particularly in the context of the Fermi Paradox. It highlights that 90% of the world's coal was formed during a unique period in Earth's geologic history, which may be a significant factor limiting the emergence of advanced civilizations elsewhere in the galaxy. Key contributors argue that while coal was crucial for the Industrial Revolution and subsequent technological advancements, alternative energy sources such as hydro, wind, and biofuels could also support civilization development. However, the consensus suggests that the absence of easily exploitable energy sources like coal would hinder industrialization.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of the Carboniferous period and its geological significance
  • Knowledge of fossil fuel types, particularly coal and its role in industrialization
  • Familiarity with the Fermi Paradox and its implications for extraterrestrial civilizations
  • Basic concepts of energy production and alternative energy sources
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the geological processes that led to the formation of coal deposits during the Carboniferous period
  • Explore the role of alternative energy sources in pre-industrial civilizations
  • Investigate the Fermi Paradox and its relation to energy availability on other planets
  • Study the historical impact of coal on the Industrial Revolution and modern energy systems
USEFUL FOR

This discussion is beneficial for historians, geologists, energy policy analysts, and anyone interested in the intersection of geology, energy resources, and the development of civilizations.

  • #31
Vanadium 50 said:
I don;'t think we should, since we don't know the alternative. Whale oil? Slave labor?
That’s a bit of a straw man, I’m afraid. You must accept that our consumption (civilation?) is not sustainable.
no one needs to starve if the major consumers consumed less. We may need to forego some consumer pleasures and pay a bit more for what we do use but that won’t hurt you or me.
 
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  • #32
It seems that you have moved away from the topic of this thread as a historical what if.
 
  • #33
Vanadium 50 said:
It seems that you have moved away from the topic of this thread as a historical what if.
Not sure about that. It's more a matter of defining terms like 'civilisation'. The narrower the range then the less probability of the situation arising.
 
  • #34
PeroK said:
One could argue that we were unlucky that no one like Newton was born in ancient Rome.
Actually, we were unlucky that someone like Newton was born in Ancient Rome (ok, Ancient Greece). His name was Archimedes and he got stabbed to death by an ancient Roman soldier.
 
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  • #35
TeethWhitener said:
Actually, we were unlucky that someone like Newton was born in Ancient Rome (ok, Ancient Greece). His name was Archimedes and he got stabbed to death by an ancient Roman soldier.
Perhaps lucky after all, otherwise Attila would have had nuclear weapons ...
 
  • #36
BvU said:
Perhaps lucky after all, otherwise Attila would have had nuclear weapons ...
Attila might have ended up an historical footnote if Rome or Constantinople had had nukes.

On the other hand, if Archimedes had been born in Enlightenment England, we might be learning Archimedes’s three laws of motion today...
 
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  • #37
I take umbrage with the notion that genius springs ex nihilo. Newtons' development of calculus (contemporaneously with Liebniz) relied on the work of Fermat, among others. Einstein's Special Relativity uses Lorentz's transformation. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the sholders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
 
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  • #38
What about hydropower?
 
  • #39
caz said:
What about hydropower?
how do you do that at scale without cement and steel?
 
  • #40
BWV said:
how do you do that at scale without cement and steel?
Roman_Cornalvo_dam%2C_Extremadura%2C_Spain._Pic_01.jpg

The Cornalvo Dam is a Roman gravity dam in Badajoz province, Extremadura, Spain, dating to the 1st or 2nd century AD. The earth dam with stone cladding on the water face is still in use.
 
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  • #41
BWV said:
how do you do that at scale without cement and steel

Beavers. Very large beavers.
 
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  • #43
Vanadium 50 said:
Beavers. Very large beavers.
Can modern civilation stand without a full spectrum pastry selection?

Fowler - ”In a world ruled by a giant beaver, mankind builds many dams to please the beaver overlord. The low-lying city of Copenhagen is flooded, thousands die. Devastated, the Danes never invent their namesake pastry.”

Statistically, one should assume that you are in the middle of something. Why should you be special and be there at the beginning or end. Therefore we only have a couple of hundred years left. We do not know if technological civilizations are stable.
 
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  • #44
BWV said:
and how does it generate electricity?
How do concrete/cement and steel generate electricity?
 
  • #46
Forget it, I’m done here
 
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  • #48
The only reason Humans tamed fire in the first place was to keep warm in the cold weather. We feel uncomfortable in the cold the way a frog (for example) does not. An ectotherm would have no reason to desire fires in the first place and may just view them as a danger or a nuisance. All other uses are secondary to that primal need. If humans were cold blooded the stone age might never have ended.
 
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  • #49
Propose to close the thread ...

##\ ##
 
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  • #50
Folks,

This is a silly debate. We must argue based on the evidence and not on mere speculation. The author is right - energy dense fuels played a key role in the development of man's technological civilization. Our civilization is extremely energy intensive. Neither wind or solar power is a likely path. And please no nonsense about renewable energy. Wind and power today only account for 2% of the world's primary energy. The path to an advanced technological civilization is much easier with energy dense fuels like hydrocarbons than wind, solar or crops. The later professor David McKay of Cambridge, a well known physicist, calculated the massive land usage required to use low density energy sources to support our civilization. The land consumption would be so high as to crowd out our energy intensive agriculture.
 
  • #51
cybernetichero said:
The only reason Humans tamed fire in the first place was to keep warm in the cold weather. We feel uncomfortable in the cold the way a frog (for example) does not. An ectotherm would have no reason to desire fires in the first place and may just view them as a danger or a nuisance. All other uses are secondary to that primal need. If humans were cold blooded the stone age might never have ended.

That is clearly wrong. Modern civilization is in all aspects energy intensive ranging from transportation, manufacturing, lighting, etc. Invariably intelligent creatures would want greater control over their environment and expend resources to create an artificial climate.
 
  • #52
The energy density (MJ/kg) of coal is ~25, wood is ~16 and oil is in the 40‘s. The US electricity generation is 63% fossil fuels, 20% nuclear and 18% renewable.

We went down a certain energy path. It is not clear that there are not others.
 
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  • #53
Enough speculation. We cannot support speculation and un-cited claims about history "woulda-been". PF does not work that way.

Thread closed.
 

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